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Is the change worth it?


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#1 OFFLINE   Mike Honeycutt

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Posted Oct. 01 2015 - 12:43 PM

I am brand new to AR-15's except for the little run I had with them in the military in 1977-80. Things have obviously changed up a bunch. I am considering buying a 6x45 upper for my S&W M&P. I already have a Savage in .243 win that I load for and though the 5.56 needed a bigger brother but not in an AR-10 platform. The 6x45 gives my .243 win a little brother in an AR format and the 5.56 a little more umph for varmints and paper. So, before I drop several dimes on an upper and all the reloading gear I have to ask those of you that shoot and reload this round, IS IT WORTH THE TROUBLE AND/OR Expense? I CAN'T build from scratch so a complete upper in 18-20" is my tops. I live in a motorized wheel chair and getting range time isn't easy. Would I just be better off getting the SR-25 in 7.62 for hunting, targets etc? THAT is what I really want but a shoulder rebuild next week will slow that WAY down. During rehab I'm doing homework. Please, any input on the change would be appreciated. In New Mexico, this WON'T be a deer gun, but pigs can die too.



#2 ONLINE   towtruck

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Posted Oct. 01 2015 - 12:58 PM

Welcome aboard!

 

I am not familiar with that round but some one will be along shortly to help you out. We have a few experts in that field who will steer you in the right direction. In the mean time jump in and read to your hearts content. 


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#3 ONLINE   Srgt. Hulka

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Posted Oct. 01 2015 - 01:02 PM

Welcome Mike.  Like Towtruck said, I'm sure somebody (Greg) will be by shortly and will be able to give you some good advice.  Meanwhile, Welcome aboard.  :tiphat:


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#4 ONLINE   GLShooter

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Posted Oct. 01 2015 - 02:23 PM

Welcome to the board. Always nice to have new fellows show up asking intelligent questions. They guys that already responded have a great pile of knowledge between them even if they are being shy.

 

The 6X45 is the next step up from the 223/556 as you already know. It's ace up the sleeve is it will take he next weight up in progression of a 223 and shoot the 6 MM version just as fast. Speed is cool but weight is the energy thing coming in. Double the velocity you get double the energy on XX weight. Double the weight but keep velocity constant and the energy goes up by a factor of four. So a bit of weight pays off big time.  

 

In the hunting world the 6X45 is really MAXED at 87-90 grin bullets though in a close in encounter a 95 is not unheard of. Lots of good stuff out there by every major bullet player. It is of course a handload only cartridge. Easily done with OTC Hornady dies or if you go esoteric a Redding 223 bushing die can be used, that's what I do BTW, and can make superb ammunition.

 

Accuracy wise this is one of those that is well balanced. I have routinely shot mine in 3Gun for years, three decades+, and won a bit of GOLDwith it.. Not all cartridge but it sure gets it done out yonder. I have also  shot it a great deal at 500 i F-Class matches and it holds it's own but you do have to work with the wind just a tad..LOL  They just flat shoot.

 

I actually, over the years, have shot more 6X45 than 223 in an AR. It is just down right fun and I over the extra thump.  For me it would be worth it.  Enough so that I just had a new 20" upper delivered last week and shot it yesterday for some reference cases. It will probably end up in 3Gun for me.  I have other 6 MM's that run over the top of it like a 6X6.8 and 243 LBC but for all around use the 6X45 has it going on. AN excellent hog round that will not let you down IMHO.

 

Loading data is available from Hodgdon and Western/Accurate.  Working out of the box you can take 223 data as a start and work up a bit from MAX. Easy enough that even I have had some success doing that.

 

Let us know how it progresses and if you need someone to build the upper with a quality barrel I can help you out there and maybe save you some $$'s.  

 

Any questions you have jump and and once again welcome to the board.

 

Greg


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#5 OFFLINE   pasttense

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Posted Oct. 01 2015 - 02:58 PM

My 223/5.56X45 has never failed to to kill the paper I aim it at. My favorite .223 Wylde barrel is extremely accurate, and precise I shoot the 6X45 because  I like to tinker. yes it will do more but mostly it does the same.


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#6 OFFLINE   geepee3

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Posted Oct. 01 2015 - 07:03 PM

Welcome to the Forum Sir.

I have two 6x45mm rifles, one 18" and one 20". Both using BHW barrels.

When I did my research for my first ARs, I figured I would be shooting over 70 gr. projectiles.

The 6x45mm shoots these more efficiently. So that's why I chose this caliber. Well that and I had to be different.  :)

Basically the recoil is going to be like your S&W M&P. So it will be easier on your shoulder.

If you decide to go with the 6x45mm. Get the Redding Type S bushing dies. By changing the bushing and sizing button, you can use the same die body to do .223 and 6x45mm.

Take Greg up on his offer to help if you decide to go this route.

 

Best wishes on your surgery.

Glenn 


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#7 OFFLINE   Mike Honeycutt

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Posted Oct. 02 2015 - 04:56 PM

Thanks for the warm welcome! I recently read, in the Paralyzed News ( a Paralyzed Vets of America publication) ,that the PVA would really like to have a shooting program going, all over the place. NM is the wild west. Literally. We have the NRA's Whittington center about 300 miles from me, one OFFICIAL range about 50 miles from me and a huge van to haul me, my wife, my chair and whatever firearms I can handle. The desert I USED to shoot in regularly has been closed down for DOD training because our region resembles Kabul so much. We are a major DRONE state...what ever happened to loading up, hitting a good gully and shooting, carefully, away? Enough of the Woe is me! A 6x45 WOULD do hogs nicely, it seems to me. I have some 85 gr. Nosler Partitions that would help...well, right now IS still homework time The shoulder leaves next Thursday so, I'll have time to toy with the notion. NO wifi at the VA so responses from ME may be a little slow for a bit, but I WILL try to follow as able. Pork in NM for free...Sounds goooooood! Any recommendations on twist? 1:9? 1:8?



#8 ONLINE   GLShooter

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Posted Oct. 02 2015 - 05:06 PM

Thanks for the warm welcome! I recently read, in the Paralyzed News ( a Paralyzed Vets of America publication) ,that the PVA would really like to have a shooting program going, all over the place. NM is the wild west. Literally. We have the NRA's Whittington center about 300 miles from me, one OFFICIAL range about 50 miles from me and a huge van to haul me, my wife, my chair and whatever firearms I can handle. The desert I USED to shoot in regularly has been closed down for DOD training because our region resembles Kabul so much. We are a major DRONE state...what ever happened to loading up, hitting a good gully and shooting, carefully, away? Enough of the Woe is me! A 6x45 WOULD do hogs nicely, it seems to me. I have some 85 gr. Nosler Partitions that would help...well, right now IS still homework time The shoulder leaves next Thursday so, I'll have time to toy with the notion. NO wifi at the VA so responses from ME may be a little slow for a bit, but I WILL try to follow as able. Pork in NM for free...Sounds goooooood! Any recommendations on twist? 1:9? 1:8?

 

Well first of all good luck with the surgery.

 

I've been shooting 87's out of :10 for years with superb results.  The new one I just got last week is 1:10. That being said I would go 1:9. It will give you a little elbow room if you want to go to the 95's.  My real long range one is 1:9 and it will handle those nicely. 87-90 is all you will ever need for hogs.  A 1:8 is a bit overboard IMHO. Not that it wouldn't work but it really needs a bit bigger bullet or a bit more speed to make it work best.

 

My vote BHW 1:9 and don't look back. Lots of guys here to help out and and I have a 25 page loading compilation if you need it.

 

Greg


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#9 OFFLINE   Mike Honeycutt

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Posted Oct. 02 2015 - 05:13 PM

Sorry but I also have to mention the 6.5 Grendel and a critter called the 6mm Mongoose. I can't find any LOAD data in my Hornady manual Vol.7 but they came flying at me via various routes. The Mongoose has a slightly shorter case but straighter walls due to a sharper shoulder being formed. This results in a better seating situation for some bullets (their claim) and a larger over all case volume. Same .223/5.56mm case. Interesting read from the Facebook reloading Central Forum. You could probably Google it. 6mm Mongoose. I'm gonna be a gun nerd with no computer, no reference manuals, no knowledgeable new friends to educate my 59 year old butt. Some day we will enter the 20th century! I promise!



#10 OFFLINE   Mike Honeycutt

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Posted Oct. 02 2015 - 05:18 PM

I was leaning toward the 1:9 twist. I'm not launching rockets, just hog killers for cheap. It IS a versatile twist, even for the M&P in 5.56 I theoretically should be shooting 60-70 grains without much trouble but 80-100 gr. sounds more effective on thick skinned critters.



#11 ONLINE   GLShooter

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Posted Oct. 02 2015 - 05:56 PM

The Mongoose is a concept cartridge requiring custom dies that do not exist at this time nor are barrels available.  The 6X45 has been SAMMI'd for a few years now. Case volume advantage is of no consequence in the two. With the use of the currently available magazines not restricted to 2.60 the Mongoose with the shorter neck offers nothing but more expense. It is already getting compared by using apples and oranges centering on magazine length. 

 

The Grendel is certainly a step up but sticking with a 6 MM the choices for more horsepower are the 6X6.8 and the 243 LBC.  Both proven game takers. The 6X6.8 took an antelope at 646 yards last year.  Of course being in on designing it I have bit of a sweet spot for it. 

 

Greg


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#12 OFFLINE   Mike Honeycutt

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Posted Oct. 02 2015 - 07:03 PM

Thankfully I had a correct notion that I would find correction on those wildcats. I'm too new to be trying anything excessively funky. Both to reloading and AR's. The 6x45 just makes more sense to me.

I have another question that may come straight from Rumor Central. IS there a significant difference in case wall thickness between .223 Rem commercial brass and American Eagle style Military 5.56 mm. brass? Again, I've heard that case capacity my be lessened with 5.56 but that also lengthens the number of times the brass can be reloaded and fired. With the 6 mm, are there any issues with early case mouth fractures after the initial step up to 6mm? I'm a guy that believes the only dumb questions are the ones not asked. Admittedly, I'm a newby but I'm a CAUTIOUS newby!

 

Thanks for the info Greg. You kinda confirmed my suspicions. The 6 x 45 is just simpler all around, isn't it?



#13 OFFLINE   geepee3

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Posted Oct. 02 2015 - 10:15 PM



Thankfully I had a correct notion that I would find correction on those wildcats. I'm too new to be trying anything excessively funky. Both to reloading and AR's. The 6x45 just makes more sense to me.

I have another question that may come straight from Rumor Central. IS there a significant difference in case wall thickness between .223 Rem commercial brass and American Eagle style Military 5.56 mm. brass? Again, I've heard that case capacity my be lessened with 5.56 but that also lengthens the number of times the brass can be reloaded and fired. With the 6 mm, are there any issues with early case mouth fractures after the initial step up to 6mm? I'm a guy that believes the only dumb questions are the ones not asked. Admittedly, I'm a newby but I'm a CAUTIOUS newby!

 

Thanks for the info Greg. You kinda confirmed my suspicions. The 6 x 45 is just simpler all around, isn't it?

 

Depends who makes the brass.

I just got in some New General Dynamics .223 brass and compared it to New 5.56 LC NATO brass.

The General Dynamics was heavier and had less case volume. So you need to check your components as you get them and see how they differ or are similar to what you previously used.

The 6x45mm is one of the easiest wildcats. Your just necking up the 5.56/.223 case to 6mm.

Nothing to change on a standard AR but the barrel. Same bolt and magazines.

Here's a picture of a Redding Type S bushing die set for 6x45mm, parts laid out.

 

IMG_2586_zps3ae67a46.jpg

Taper sizing button and bushings for 6mm neck sizing. 

 

As I said in my previous post. You can use the .223 sizing button that comes with the dies and get bushings to reload 5.56/.223. Redding bushing dies don't come with any bushings, you have to order the sizes you need.

 

On your question of neck fractures. I have only had one so far. The brass was once fired LC and was on its second reload by me (third total firing).

They can happen, But they seems to be a rarity. 

 

Glenn 



#14 OFFLINE   NugginFutz

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Posted Oct. 03 2015 - 11:55 AM

...

 

The 6X45 is the next step up from the 223/556 as you already know. It's ace up the sleeve is it will take he next weight up in progression of a 223 and shoot the 6 MM version just as fast. Speed is cool but weight is the energy thing coming in. Double the velocity you get double the energy on XX weight. Double the weight but keep velocity constant and the energy goes up by a factor of four. So a bit of weight pays off big time.  

 

...

Let us know how it progresses and if you need someone to build the upper with a quality barrel I can help you out there and maybe save you some $$'s.  

 

Any questions you have jump and and once again welcome to the board.

 

Greg

 

Ordinarily, I have no reason to question what Greg says, but in this case I need to correct a misstatement.  The quantities cited are actually reversed.  If you double the mass for a given velocity, the additional energy is proportional (2x).  It is the velocity which has the greater effect.  

 

Consider the equation for Kinetic Energy

 

KE = 0.5 * m * v^2

 

where KE is Kinetic Energy, m is mass and v is velocity.

 

Because the velocity is squared, doubling it will increase the KE by 4x, tripling it will yield 9x, quadrupling it will yield 16x, etc. The energy is dependent on the square of the speed.

 

Having said that, I will step aside, and continue learning from this very interesting thread.



#15 ONLINE   GLShooter

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Posted Oct. 03 2015 - 12:41 PM

 

Ordinarily, I have no reason to question what Greg says, but in this case I need to correct a misstatement.  The quantities cited are actually reversed.  If you double the mass for a given velocity, the additional energy is proportional (2x).  It is the velocity which has the greater effect.  

 

Consider the equation for Kinetic Energy

 

KE = 0.5 * m * v^2

 

where KE is Kinetic Energy, m is mass and v is velocity.

 

Because the velocity is squared, doubling it will increase the KE by 4x, tripling it will yield 9x, quadrupling it will yield 16x, etc. The energy is dependent on the square of the speed.

 

Having said that, I will step aside, and continue learning from this very interesting thread.

 

 

You are correct I got my V's amd M's mixed up in my mind.. It happens.  

 

One thing to not overlook is can the energy be imparted to the target. A 150 FMJ at XX velocity has the same energy as a 150 Spitzer but one will go on through and the other will cause damge as it goes in and maybe out.

 

Greg


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#16 OFFLINE   Mike Honeycutt

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Posted Oct. 03 2015 - 03:46 PM

Well, I'm definitely enjoying this line of questioning Any price quotes on a complete upper, 18" OR 20", can be emailed to me. BHW barrel, 18" may be cheaper and easier to handle but another 2 " would probably add a lot to the cartridge. A free float hand-guard might be handy but I Would like enough rail sections for an added light and some optics I just bought. I got a Vortex Viper PST-43111. It's a 1x-4x, 24 mm objective with moa reticle and capped turrets. I LOVE the 1x because it's a true 1x. It has 10 light settings that cover everything from night vision capable to bright enough for me in daylight. 1 moa dot in center. OFF positions between the brightness settings so you can click of and on intentionally but not easily by accident. I'm thinking the scope and gun will shoot better than I do. Multiple Sclerosis put me in the chair and made me shaky but I'm working to control that. Is 400 yds a reasonable distance for pigs with this round. I'm pretty sure most encounters would be shorter but even 300 yds. would pickle me completely TINK! I want a DEAD animal, not a wounded one..

 

Thanks for the math refresher. That is why I love firearms in general...the math, the science, the ability to SAFELY try new things. My inner nerd child is dancing the boogie-dance as I type.

 

Also, thanks for the well wishes and any prayers concerning the upcoming surgery. I do NOT look forward to it but this new caliber has got me up and thinking harder than I should. That is better than ANY pain pill. I'd RATHER launch pills downrange, preferably at something edible. The chair is holding me back but I'm working on angles to get around that too. Improvise, adapt and overcome is a darned good quote, just don't know who said it.

 

Greg could you send me those load compilations on email, please, if possible. I'm thinking Varget might be a good powder for this and I have some! Y'all have been a great source of real time info and I truly appreciate it. ANYTHING else you can tell me would be appreciated as well. This round excites me and I don't know why. But a 6 mm in semi-auto AR style, instead of my trusty BOLT gun sounds even better. I'll hunt with it too, if I can get out there, but hogs and the 6x45 just sounds RIGHT to me somehow!



#17 OFFLINE   Mike Honeycutt

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Posted Oct. 03 2015 - 04:03 PM

Seems it would be a good candidate for home/ranch defense as well. Any notions or comments on the cartridge or rifle as a 16" carbine? I would PREFER a longer range gun with more thump for accuracy but the longer barrels seem nose heavy. That's why I sold my Yugo SKS. It was center of body mass capable but way too heavy up front. My nephew bought a dedicated long range varmint AR several years ago to the tune of $1300. But it weighs a ton with a 24" bbl. and a monster scope on it. I wouldn't even subject my CHAIR, much less myself to that kind of weight. I'm not a bench-rest shooter and I no longer run and gun. I just want to shoot something new in a firearm and new as a target. They are getting concerned that hogs are invading New Mexico from Texas, but the Old Spaniards turned them loose for game a LONG time ago. IF they come up the Rio Grande this far, I'm a half mile from the river as a crow flies. I'm willing to do my part to reduce the invading hoard!



#18 OFFLINE   Mike Honeycutt

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Posted Oct. 03 2015 - 04:40 PM

Glenn, could you send me the part numbers for your redding set-up, please? I just went blind looking for anything 6x45 at Midway and drew a blank. Maybe if I had the set numbers or something to search for? Thanks guys!  Mike



#19 ONLINE   GLShooter

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Posted Oct. 03 2015 - 05:31 PM

The 6X45 has been done on a lot of platforms. The Oklahoma Highway Patrol got a bunch of Mini-14's in 6X45 after a Trooper was killed by some escaped cons and the Troopers 223 wouldn't work on the car as a barrier well.

 

Greg



#20 OFFLINE   geepee3

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Posted Oct. 03 2015 - 06:00 PM

Glenn, could you send me the part numbers for your redding set-up, please? I just went blind looking for anything 6x45 at Midway and drew a blank. Maybe if I had the set numbers or something to search for? Thanks guys!  Mike

 

Here is what I have, 

Redding Type S bushing die, .223 Remington,  # 77111

Redding .17-6mm taper size button, # 19242

Redding .258 neck bushing Titanium Nitride,  #76258. Note, I have bushings from .257 to .260. The .258 is what works best for me. Greg may be able to give you other options.

Your going to need a bullet seating die. For that I went with Forster.

Forester Ultra Micrometer Seater Die, 6x45mm # U00045

 

This equipment is pricey, But I think it's some of the best quality.

Hopefully you will be able to find everything.

 

Glenn 






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