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What Is The Distance Limitation of a Red Dot?


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#1 OFFLINE   SturmGewehr

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Posted Mar. 20 2017 - 01:04 PM

Not the ACOG but a simple red dot device.  For instance with a 3 MOA dot, the dot area will be at least three inches at 100 yards.  This is fine for self defense but what is it at 200 yards?  At what distance does it become impractical?  If you drop down to a 2 or 1 MOA dot, does that effect acquirsition speed at shorter distances?  What dot size vs. distance really works?




#2 OFFLINE   bamashooter

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Posted Mar. 20 2017 - 02:14 PM

Not the ACOG but a simple red dot device.  For instance with a 3 MOA dot, the dot area will be at least three inches at 100 yards.  This is fine for self defense but what is it at 200 yards?  At what distance does it become impractical?  If you drop down to a 2 or 1 MOA dot, does that effect acquirsition speed at shorter distances?  What dot size vs. distance really works?

Impractical depends on the size of the target mostly. The 3" MOA example would cover 3" at 100 / 6" at 200 / etc. And of course you must factor in the shooter's vision. So if you have a human target close to the included dimensions, you can see how MOA over distance impacts the target.

 

Head Width Front View  6.5"
Head Height Top to Bottom  10"
Chest Thickness Side  12"
Shoulder to Shoulder 20"

 

Once again using the 3" MOA example at 100 yds, let's get closer:

1.5" @ 50 yds

0.75" @ 25 yards

 

For me personally I have a 2" and have no issues close in on quickly acquiring the target. But I work at it. For a casual shooter they would likely have a quicker acquisition time if the 2" dot had a circle around it of around 65 MOA or so. I feel a 3" is a good "utility" MOA. Here's some samples of a dot with a circle: https://www.google.c...iw=1338&bih=616


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#3 OFFLINE   SturmGewehr

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Posted Mar. 20 2017 - 02:39 PM

Thank you bamashooter, as always your answers are great.  The second 65 MOA circle does look good.  


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#4 OFFLINE   GLShooter

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Posted Mar. 20 2017 - 03:56 PM

I shoot a 2 MOA dot on some AR's.  Impractical depends on what you want and how good are you.. For SD at long range I would be happy with 500 yards or so on torsos. On heads I would be limited to maybe 350 or so. I do prefer a 3X adapter when I get out to 250 or so for precise shot placement on things like coke cans etc.

 

A major issue would be knowing the drop  at each range. When we get out past 300 yards things get steep quick with a 223 and range estimation comes into play rapidly. They aren't point and click like a 20 Practical or one of my honking 22X6.8's.

 

Greg




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#5 OFFLINE   bamashooter

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Posted Mar. 20 2017 - 03:58 PM

Thank you bamashooter, as always your answers are great.  The second 65 MOA circle does look good.  

You're very welcome buddy. You certainly do your research, don't you? :)  On many things I'm the same way. Bet I got more questions at times than there are answers. :D: This forum will have you fixed up one of these days.




#6 OFFLINE   SturmGewehr

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Posted Mar. 20 2017 - 05:02 PM

You're very welcome buddy. You certainly do your research, don't you? :)  On many things I'm the same way. Bet I got more questions at times than there are answers. :D: This forum will have you fixed up one of these days.

 

Questions and thanks to you guys answers but after some thought more questions.


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#7 OFFLINE   SturmGewehr

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Posted Mar. 20 2017 - 05:07 PM

I shoot a 2 MOA dot on some AR's.  Impractical depends on what you want and how good are you.. For SD at long range I would be happy with 500 yards or so on torsos. On heads I would be limited to maybe 350 or so. I do prefer a 3X adapter when I get out to 250 or so for precise shot placement on things like coke cans etc.

 

A major issue would be knowing the drop  at each range. When we get out past 300 yards things get steep quick with a 223 and range estimation comes into play rapidly. They aren't point and click like a 20 Practical or one of my honking 22X6.8's.

 

Greg

 

 

Impractical depends on what you want and how good are you. 

 

And what you can afford.




#8 OFFLINE   GLShooter

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Posted Mar. 20 2017 - 05:14 PM

Impractical depends on what you want and how good are you. 
 
And what you can afford.


Budget does intrude on the equation beyond a doubt.

Greg


#9 OFFLINE   prof_fate

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Posted Mar. 20 2017 - 05:59 PM

I only had a red dot until last weekend till my scope and sights came in.

Hmm..now i'm in my 50s and wear glasses to see...so not sure how much that affects things, but trying to sight in the rifle off a bench with red dot sucked. I can pull up a dot, a circled dot, a plus sign..and for 'action' shooting it's great - you get very fast target acquisition - and if you need to shoot a human sized target up to 50 yards it'd be great - but if you need to be hitting the zombie up side the head..it's gonna get trickier.

It just seem very imprecise.




#10 OFFLINE   SturmGewehr

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Posted Mar. 20 2017 - 06:06 PM

I only had a red dot until last weekend till my scope and sights came in.

Hmm..now i'm in my 50s and wear glasses to see...so not sure how much that affects things, but trying to sight in the rifle off a bench with red dot sucked. I can pull up a dot, a circled dot, a plus sign..and for 'action' shooting it's great - you get very fast target acquisition - and if you need to shoot a human sized target up to 50 yards it'd be great - but if you need to be hitting the zombie up side the head..it's gonna get trickier.

It just seem very imprecise.

 

I like that quick acquisition.  What do you have?  What is the dots' MOA?




#11 OFFLINE   Derk_digler24

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Posted Mar. 20 2017 - 06:07 PM

Some guys take an aimpoint to 700.
Im not one of those guys. A member awhile back said 300 was impractical and argued with Greg about it for a few posts. For some reason that thread had me wanting to reach out with a red dot. i have been shooting to 300 on a regular basis with a T1, 2 moa dot. Im not going for head shots. But i will put a bunch of lead in your upper thorax with only a few in the abdomen.
Practice makes perfect.
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#12 OFFLINE   bamashooter

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Posted Mar. 20 2017 - 06:12 PM

I only had a red dot until last weekend till my scope and sights came in.

Hmm..now i'm in my 50s and wear glasses to see...so not sure how much that affects things, but trying to sight in the rifle off a bench with red dot sucked. I can pull up a dot, a circled dot, a plus sign..and for 'action' shooting it's great - you get very fast target acquisition - and if you need to shoot a human sized target up to 50 yards it'd be great - but if you need to be hitting the zombie up side the head..it's gonna get trickier.

It just seem very imprecise.

I don't experience that and I'm for sure nothing special. I have a simple 2 MOA red dot and do very well at 50 meters with my 16". Easily do human-size head shots all day long. What scope and sights did you get?




#13 OFFLINE   SturmGewehr

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Posted Mar. 20 2017 - 06:13 PM

Some guys take an aimpoint to 700.
Im not one of those guys. A member awhile back said 300 was impractical and argued with Greg about it for a few posts. For some reason that thread had me wanting to reach out with a red dot. i have been shooting to 300 on a regular basis with a T1, 2 moa dot. Im not going for head shots. But i will put a bunch of lead in your upper thorax with only a few in the abdomen.
Practice makes perfect.

 

When you are looking 300 yards down range to a tiny white target, well, that seems like a long way without magnification or are my eyes finally failing.  Your Aimpoint must be a good sight and you must be pretty good yourself. 




#14 OFFLINE   bamashooter

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Posted Mar. 20 2017 - 06:17 PM

Some guys take an aimpoint to 700.
Im not one of those guys. A member awhile back said 300 was impractical and argued with Greg about it for a few posts. For some reason that thread had me wanting to reach out with a red dot. i have been shooting to 300 on a regular basis with a T1, 2 moa dot. Im not going for head shots. But i will put a bunch of lead in your upper thorax with only a few in the abdomen.
Practice makes perfect.

If the red dot is quality and dialed in and a person is fortunate enough to have keen eyesight I don't see a major problem for a quality shooter (300 yds). 700, count me out.




#15 OFFLINE   GLShooter

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Posted Mar. 20 2017 - 06:22 PM

Like I said the trick is knowing the ballistic curve. I shoot one on my M16 in matches with 2 MOA. I am dead on at 175 with it and a head shot on a Milpark is laughably easy at that range. I have shot more than a bullet or two with it since the mid-80's. Like my old shot out 223 Varminter it is like putting on an old pair of slippers. They fit just right.

I run one on the hand guard of my 6X45 in 3Gun with a 6 MOA for down and dirty up close targets. It is pure speed when running an assault course with varying ranges. I love it when I go through the bottom of a gully hitting targets on both sides. Time on target is minimal so shuffling fast is what wins.

Greg


#16 OFFLINE   bamashooter

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Posted Mar. 20 2017 - 06:42 PM

 

When you are looking 300 yards down range to a tiny white target, well, that seems like a long way without magnification or are my eyes finally failing.  Your Aimpoint must be a good sight and you must be pretty good yourself. 

If just interested in tagging a target, it certainly needs to be large enough to give you enough surface area to play with. And you need good eye sight. I'd say average folks using a 1x red dot  would need a few shots to drop a coyote at 300 yds, regardless of MOA, with a .223/5.56. Now hitting a VW shouldn't be a big deal. Regardless, consistent ammunition and having hard sights / optics dialed in is essential. The rest is up to the skills of the shooter. If you ever decide to shoot beyond 100 yds make sure your target is large enough so that you can at least "get on the paper" and then be able to make your adjustments. I have seen more than one person set up something about the size of a drink can at distance when trying to sight in weapons. It happens. Lots of wasted ammunition and very frustrated shooter.


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#17 OFFLINE   SturmGewehr

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Posted Mar. 20 2017 - 07:01 PM

If just interested in tagging a target, it certainly needs to be large enough to give you enough surface area to play with. And you need good eye sight. I'd say average folks using a 1x red dot  would need a few shots to drop a coyote at 300 yds, regardless of MOA, with a .223/5.56. Now hitting a VW shouldn't be a big deal. Regardless, consistent ammunition and having hard sights / optics dialed in is essential. The rest is up to the skills of the shooter. If you ever decide to shoot beyond 100 yds make sure your target is large enough so that you can at least "get on the paper" and then be able to make your adjustments. I have seen more than one person set up something about the size of a drink can at distance when trying to sight in weapons. It happens. Lots of wasted ammunition and very frustrated shooter.

 

That sounds like very wise advice.  Those little white things way downrange are intimidating.  I'm going back out to the desert soon with a man-sized zombie target to check the 100 yd zero in a more practical way.  That would be a great time to stretch out to 300 with a larger target and see what that looks like.


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#18 OFFLINE   Derk_digler24

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Posted Mar. 20 2017 - 07:07 PM

When you are looking 300 yards down range to a tiny white target, well, that seems like a long way without magnification or are my eyes finally failing.  Your Aimpoint must be a good sight and you must be pretty good yourself.

What tiny white target are you looking at?
Im talking about shooting a silhouette target. But an 8x11 sheet of paper would have alot of holes in it too.


#19 OFFLINE   SturmGewehr

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Posted Mar. 20 2017 - 07:11 PM

What tiny white target are you looking at?
Im talking about shooting a silhouette target. But an 8x11 sheet of paper would have alot of holes in it too.

 

Hell, those targets are so far away who knows what they are.  At 100 they like to set up empty oxygen bottles (made of metal) and those short, stubby empty propane tanks.  They paint them white and you can hear an impact when you hit one at 100.  They could be the same propane tanks at 300.




#20 OFFLINE   Derk_digler24

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Posted Mar. 20 2017 - 07:22 PM

Try this, get a pizza box and post it at 200, then 250 then 300. You have to shoot and practice and figure out where your hitting at range ( greg has said this with ballistic curve)
Good information
https://youtu.be/lP7dszBAezk





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