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Harsh realities


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#1 OFFLINE   FMF_Doc

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Posted Jul. 12 2017 - 02:02 PM

A recent training class put some things into more perspective, in the CONUS there are some realities to gunfighting that are not present in a combat environment. But the threat of death/injury are absolutely the same, probably more so because most people are not wearing any type of armor in their daily lives.

Reality 1- this is for real, someone is going to get hurt, hopefully not you.

Reality 2- people never rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of competency.

Reality 3- you don't train for real life chaos, and square range does nothing for combative skills.

These are the 5 rules for gunfighting that we have adopted-

1. Own it/Everything you send out is your responsibility no matter what.

2. Save those that need saved.

3. Kill those who need killed.

4. Always be working (gaining better position, seize the advantage)

5. Fight like no one is coming to save you.

If you carry a gun for defense you must train religiously, combatives are perishable skills.

If you carry a gun professionally, train the way you will fight, no holds barred do what it takes to win every time. Your life and everyone around you demands that you have the skills necessary to do your job.

The only way to build skills is through repetition, casual carriers practice until they get it right, professionals practice until they can't get it wrong. There is a difference.

Mindset is critical- if you are unable or unwilling to take another life then you need to leave guns alone and find another method of defense.

 

The biggest obstacle is ego- admitting you actually know very little of the subject matter at hand and then training to improve your understanding and skill levels.  Women have a much better time learning new skills, because they tend to just learn without any preconceived inflated sense of self that men tend to exhibit "I'm a man, I know how to shoot".

 

Guns, empty hands, less lethal are all tools- you are the weapon.


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#2 ONLINE   smb5769

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Posted Jul. 13 2017 - 08:18 AM

This should be a sticky.


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#3 OFFLINE   rasputin

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Posted Jul. 13 2017 - 08:33 AM

Great stuff.


#4 ONLINE   devil duck

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Posted Jul. 13 2017 - 09:10 AM

The biggest obstacle is ego- admitting you actually know very little of the subject matter at hand and then training to improve your understanding and skill levels. Women have a much better time learning new skills, because they tend to just learn without any preconceived inflated sense of self that men tend to exhibit "I'm a man, I know how to shoot".


I have only taken a few classes but it seems that in each class at least one student will have this mindset. In each class but one the instructor had to take time to address this student. In one class the instructor actually stopped and called him out. "Since Mike seems to know more than me, I will let him explain why we should use a high grip and hard hold" lol, Mike about pissed himself when everyone turned to him and just stared waiting for his response. After a few seconds the instructor asked if it was ok to continue? Mike had his head down and just said "yes sir" , never heard shat from Mike during the entire class.

Edited by devil duck, Jul. 13 2017 - 09:10 AM.

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#5 OFFLINE   Rampy

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Posted Jul. 13 2017 - 03:29 PM

Hummmm, I've seen that a time or six before, don't remember where....but tis' good reading....

 

 

The biggest obstacle is ego- admitting you actually know very little of the subject matter at hand and then training to improve your understanding and skill levels. Women have a much better time learning new skills, because they tend to just learn without any preconceived inflated sense of self that men tend to exhibit "I'm a man, I know how to shoot".
 

 

 

Not just ego, but emotional attachment, people feel they must defend thier purchases, are invested in them instead of looking at it logically and without emotion...

 

Look at people flocking to the cheapest of cheap AR's, optics, and then how they beotch about buying quality....how expensive it is...vs a $450 dollar AR and a $90 optic...and then they have problems, just a round here, round there, blame it on the cheap magazine, the magpul mag they try next...and refuse to look at the cheap AR, the cheap optic, that is really the problem....but it's totally ignored and everything else is blamed...

 

How many times have you seen a guy at the range shooting a shotgun sized pattern with a handgun, blaming it on the sights, ammo and such & then you ask to shoot it and whamo, it's got a tight group, it's actually human error, but equipment is always to blame.....

 

The Springfield XD platform as an example, people say they have never had any problems, you talk to them, turns out they have had a malfunction of some kinmd and never thought about it...1 or 2 per 100 rds, some as many as 4 per hundred rounds...the Serpa holster, it's been banned by FLETC and many many many other ranges, law enforcement departments and such...yet people always defend it.. Same with those funky holsters that are part leather/fabric and part plastic, they have problems but people say they work and are comfortable, & refuse to listen or learn...the 380, people rush to defend it and justify it when it's never passed the FBI protocols, when one of if not the foremost ballistic expert in America says its next to worthless, when he says you can screw a 389 under somebody's jaw, empty the magazine and not one round will penetrate into the brain pan, he knows what he is saying and has data out the ass to back it up...yet people say let me shoot you with one, and all kinds of other stupid shat like it was the German WWII officers weapon and on and on....it's a case of people attempting to rationalize and justify what they are invested in and not being willing to open the mind, learn and progress....


Edited by Rampy, Jul. 13 2017 - 03:33 PM.

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#6 ONLINE   GLShooter

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Posted Jul. 13 2017 - 06:37 PM

My thoughts from being on both sides of the lectern and range.

 

First rule: There are no rules

 

Second Rule: Only chameleons survive.

 

Greg


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#7 OFFLINE   FMF_Doc

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Posted Jul. 17 2017 - 06:38 AM

Thoughts I had while in an Intermediate Patrol Tactics class for work, we were going over vehicle combatives (draw, presentation, etc.) while seated in the patrol units, and it was scary how many don't even practice these skills, given the murders of several officers nationally in their cars this is a skill that could save your life.

 

In addition to vehicle tactics, arrest/control, and patrol functions we really hit on the new realities that have become a way of life, not just for officers but most of the material would be totally applicable to everyone that carries a gun as far as the mindset development.

 

The instructor brought out a few good points that really stuck with me.


Edited by FMF_Doc, Jul. 17 2017 - 06:40 AM.



#8 OFFLINE   Retcop

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Posted Jul. 17 2017 - 07:18 AM

<snip> 

 

The Springfield XD platform as an example, people say they have never had any problems, you talk to them, turns out they have had a malfunction of some kinmd and never thought about it...1 or 2 per 100 rds, some as many as 4 per hundred rounds...the Serpa holster, it's been banned by FLETC and many many many other ranges, law enforcement departments and such...yet people always defend it.. 

 

I have never been a fan of the Springfield XD platform, largely because of reasons I consider personal preference.

 

I am curious to know where you are getting your data that indicates the XD platform has a relatively high malfunction rate ?

 

Is it the entire XD line, or certain slide/frame/caliber combinations ?

 

Thanks.




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#9 OFFLINE   rasputin

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Posted Jul. 17 2017 - 07:49 AM

This thread prompted me to return to the range after too long of a lapse.
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#10 ONLINE   Steelborn1

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Posted Jul. 17 2017 - 08:09 AM

I really need some time behind the trigger as well.
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#11 ONLINE   GLShooter

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Posted Jul. 17 2017 - 08:52 AM

I really need some time behind the trigger as well.

 

It's never enough.  That's why I want to move out to no-where land and have my own range so I can shoot pistols in the day and rifles on the bench after dark using lights with less wind and less mirage.

 

Greg


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#12 ONLINE   Steelborn1

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Posted Jul. 17 2017 - 09:04 AM

Me too. I want at least 10 acres. In Texas, if you have a parcel of that size you can do pretty much whatever you want on it. If the city grows into your area, you can still shoot all you want. You are simply responsible for the bullet if it leaves your property.

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#13 OFFLINE   Rampy

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Posted Jul. 17 2017 - 12:44 PM

Shooting in a vehicle is unique people never think about or practice....the noise, glass shreds, smell, smoke, all tend to disorient somebody & that's if you shoot thru the windshield punching a hole and then shoot multiple rounds making a clear shot...going out a side window presents other problems, what happens when you shoot across a person sitting in your vehicle.....

 

Thoughts I had while in an Intermediate Patrol Tactics class for work, we were going over vehicle combatives (draw, presentation, etc.) while seated in the patrol units, and it was scary how many don't even practice these skills, given the murders of several officers nationally in their cars this is a skill that could save your life.

 

In addition to vehicle tactics, arrest/control, and patrol functions we really hit on the new realities that have become a way of life, not just for officers but most of the material would be totally applicable to everyone that carries a gun as far as the mindset development.

 

The instructor brought out a few good points that really stuck with me.

 

 

 

I have never been a fan of the Springfield XD platform, largely because of reasons I consider personal preference.

 

I am curious to know where you are getting your data that indicates the XD platform has a relatively high malfunction rate ?

 

Is it the entire XD line, or certain slide/frame/caliber combinations ?

 

Thanks.

 

What I've personally seen, documented data by ranges, professional real world weapon instructors, reports by different range officers, you can go in line to different forums and read AAR's from classes and see how the XD will lock up, we all know you can not manipulate the slide without fully depressing the grip safety and this is a issue in itself. Look and see who runs the XD, see what LEO agencies issue it and then look into the malfunction rate of said pistol...look and see who uses the XD in competition, 3 gun or other pistol shootings, see if it's totally stock, or been worked over...lots of data is out there if you look....




#14 OFFLINE   Retcop

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Posted Jul. 18 2017 - 05:29 AM

Shooting in a vehicle is unique people never think about or practice....the noise, glass shreds, smell, smoke, all tend to disorient somebody & that's if you shoot thru the windshield punching a hole and then shoot multiple rounds making a clear shot...going out a side window presents other problems, what happens when you shoot across a person sitting in your vehicle.....

 

 

 

 

What I've personally seen, documented data by ranges, professional real world weapon instructors, reports by different range officers, you can go in line to different forums and read AAR's from classes and see how the XD will lock up, we all know you can not manipulate the slide without fully depressing the grip safety and this is a issue in itself. Look and see who runs the XD, see what LEO agencies issue it and then look into the malfunction rate of said pistol...look and see who uses the XD in competition, 3 gun or other pistol shootings, see if it's totally stock, or been worked over...lots of data is out there if you look....

 

That tiny grip safety is my least favorite feature. 

Looking for hard numbers, because it is difficult to dismiss such a successful platform with anecdotal 

evidence IMO. I have no idea what LEO run them...no one around here,,,still anecdotal IMO...




#15 OFFLINE   Rampy

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Posted Jul. 18 2017 - 09:45 AM

ok......

 

That tiny grip safety is my least favorite feature. 

Looking for hard numbers, because it is difficult to dismiss such a successful platform with anecdotal 

evidence IMO. I have no idea what LEO run them...no one around here,,,still anecdotal IMO...




#16 OFFLINE   Retcop

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Posted Jul. 19 2017 - 05:51 AM

ok......

ok.......That's productive....

 

Still looking for hard data, you know, failure testing...

Actual failure rates on a number of randomly selected pieces

involving something at least remotely based on empirical evidence

before such a sweeping condemnation of a whole line of pistols.

 

The flip side is I respect your opinion, and it is very worth considering.

Since you are so adamant on the XD's I was hoping you could/would

provide more. 


Edited by Retcop, Jul. 19 2017 - 05:58 AM.



#17 OFFLINE   Rampy

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Posted Jul. 19 2017 - 01:31 PM

Not that I don't want to, I'm unable to say more....that's why I referenced open source info and different sources.....

 

ok.......That's productive....

 

Still looking for hard data, you know, failure testing...

Actual failure rates on a number of randomly selected pieces

involving something at least remotely based on empirical evidence

before such a sweeping condemnation of a whole line of pistols.

 

The flip side is I respect your opinion, and it is very worth considering.

Since you are so adamant on the XD's I was hoping you could/would

provide more. 




#18 OFFLINE   FMF_Doc

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Posted Jul. 19 2017 - 11:01 PM

The next section of the course will deal with the carbine in the same environment, inside a vehicle. It should be very interesting.




#19 OFFLINE   Retcop

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Posted Jul. 20 2017 - 05:18 AM

The next section of the course will deal with the carbine in the same environment, inside a vehicle. It should be very interesting.

 

That's going to be interesting. 

What is the total barrel length on your service rifle ?

I appreciate the insight. 

 

In my day we had a few M16's and about a dozen Mini-14's in the Armory, and then a few for the snipers.

We were running shotguns then.

Personal AR 15's were coming in at my PD as I was leaving...

 

While I am fully cognizant there may be a time to use the AR inside the vehicle, and you should rain to it,

If my sidearm is functional, I believe I would prefer that to the AR in the confines of my squad. 




#20 OFFLINE   FMF_Doc

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Posted Jul. 28 2017 - 10:13 PM

 

That's going to be interesting. 

What is the total barrel length on your service rifle ?

I appreciate the insight. 

 

In my day we had a few M16's and about a dozen Mini-14's in the Armory, and then a few for the snipers.

We were running shotguns then.

Personal AR 15's were coming in at my PD as I was leaving...

 

While I am fully cognizant there may be a time to use the AR inside the vehicle, and you should rain to it,

If my sidearm is functional, I believe I would prefer that to the AR in the confines of my squad. 

most of us use the 16 there are a few running SBR at 12.5-14.5 so we will have several to work with.







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