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Really liking midsize DA/SA poly pistols


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#1 OFFLINE   SSGN_Doc

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Posted Oct. 04 2017 - 10:02 PM

It's been kinda busy for the last several months.  I've been working on transitioning out of the Navy after 24 years and finally am starting on the "free time" side of things (though that looks like it will be short lived).  Had my retirement ceremony almost two weeks ago and began looking for my next job, and I will be starting one next Monday with an orthotics and prosthetics company.  In the middle of all of that I made sure to get one good range session in last week.  i chose to take out a couple of comparable pistols and run them side by side.  

 

The Beretta Px4 compact became my primary carry gun after breaking it in and setting it up with features I wanted for carry (Wilson 12# hammer Spring, Ameriglo front night sight and blacked out rear, low profile decock levers, low profile slide catch that deletes the right sided lever, and a medium sized mag release button.  The low profile levers make it much more carry friendly, as the standard levers make it almost a quarter inch wider overall.)  I started logging my round  count a bit late, but have 1,850 rounds logged through it now which have been trouble free.

 

When I had decided to look for a compact DA/SA pistol, I was also looking into the CZ P07, but located the Px4 first and had liked the stock trigger pull better on the Px4 as well.  But both pistols are about the same size and similar in weight.  The Px4 impressed me because it shoots and handles recoil like a larger pistol, but still gives the advantages for carry in reduced size and weight.  The P07 trigger out of the box seems to have a kind of stagey feel, but shooting it alongside of the Beretta it seemed to hang right with it in terms of follow up shots and accuracy, natural pointing ability.  But as I track the front sight it does seem to have a touch more muzzle rise, but it doesn't seem to negatively impact my ability to shoot it in practical drills.

 

I would say the Px4 overall feels smoother in both form and function.  I already stated the trigger pull feels smoother (out of the box even, before installing the lighter hammer spring).  Operating the slide takes less effort and the slide serrations are smaller and not as rough.  The shape of eh grip and rear of the slide seem to contribute to less printing, when carrying concealed.  The down side of all of this smoothness is in the grip texture itself, which is not aggressive and can actually feel kid of slick once it starts raining or I get to sweating.  So, I stippled the frame.  

 

Px4_smaller.jpg

 

The CZ on the other hand seems to be built like a eastern block tank.  It has a much more angular profile.  The cocking serrations are deep and wide which give good purchase, which it kind of needs to make up for the lower profile slide.  The actual trigger shape is more like a straight profile trigger and I really like it.  The slide release and decocking levers are big and easy to operate.  The grip texture is about perfect, but I would like a bit more of it up a little higher on the grip, but it seems to stay put in the hand.  Round count with it is only up over 500, but it seems to be natural to run right along side of the Px4 that I've been running hardest since April.

 

P07_smaller.jpg

 

If anyone was looking for a hammer fired DA/SA pistol in a polymer frame that is about the size of a Glock 19, I would be hard pressed to recommend one of these over the other and feel that if someone picked either one, they would be well armed.

 

P07_and_Px4_smaller.jpg




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#2 OFFLINE   bfausett84

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Posted Oct. 04 2017 - 10:16 PM

I love the cz, great shooting and easy to carry.

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#3 OFFLINE   SSGN_Doc

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Posted Oct. 04 2017 - 10:23 PM

I love the cz, great shooting and easy to carry.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

 

Yep.  I'd have to agree.  The PX4 surprises a lot of people though.  I know it surprised me.  I had largely ignored the full sized Px4 from the time they were introduced over 10 years ago,  But once I got to shooting the compact I have become more and more impressed with it, and I like it even more after really setting it up for carry.  A buddy of mine was visiting from out of town, and we went out shooting earlier this year.  I showed him the Beretta and he said he really wasn't a fan of Berettas.   I got him to shoot it and he turned around after the first mag and said "You're sure this is a Beretta?  'Cause I kinda like it."


Edited by SSGN_Doc, Oct. 04 2017 - 10:26 PM.



#4 ONLINE   Pepper

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Posted Oct. 05 2017 - 12:58 AM

I love the mid-sized guns, they just feel right, and like they're very efficient for the size. I'm not a huge polymer fan, other than my G19, so I kind of tend to gravitate towards guns like the P229. I just can't justify the purchase  of another right now, especially when I love carrying the G19 so much. 




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#5 OFFLINE   Retcop

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Posted Oct. 05 2017 - 07:51 AM

Great review on 2 pistols that I have been interested in.

 

Thank you !

 

Any comments on comparative accuracy, or how they 

compare from the draw ?

 

John




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#6 OFFLINE   SSGN_Doc

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Posted Oct. 05 2017 - 09:56 AM

 

 

Any comments on comparative accuracy, or how they 

compare from the draw ?

 

John

 

I have carried both and run some drills using a JM Custom Kydex AIWB holster.  Both seem to draw an point quite naturally.  First shot from draw times are very close.  The P07 seems to have a bit more muzzle rise, but both seem to come back on target quickly.  I'll have to run my shot timer with them side by side on my next trip to look at split times.

 

Both are seem to demonstrate an ability to be very mechanically accurate.  I am not wringing out the best accuracy with the P07 yet, but I have almost 4 times the trigger time with the Px4, and the reduced hammer spring weight in the Px4 does help with DA accuracy.

 

The P07 has a more palpable and tactile trigger reset, which can be useful if you are trying to focus on reset during recoil for a faster follow up.  

 

One thing I did note though on my last trip was that I had been working on cadence drills but wrapped up my session trying a few defensive loads in the P07 that I had already run through the Px4.  I was getting "Good" groups with the CZ at 7 yds with Magtech and Federal Champion aluminum cased ammo during the drills, but when I switched to the premium ammo and shot some 5 shot groups for accuracy it was producing one hole groups with Hornady Critical Duty and American Gunner ammo, and pretty tight groups with Winchester White Box 115 Gr "Personal Defense" JHP "bargain" loads that were on sale for $21 per 50 rounds last time I was in my local Sportsman's Warehouse.

 

I would be really hard pressed to recommend one of these pistols over the other though, because they seem to run and handle so similarly.  If racking a slide is difficult for someone, the Px4 may have a bit of an advantage, and felt recoil seems to be lower in the Px4 as well.  If someone wants something built like a tank, the P07 may be the way to go.  Based on the slide in frame design there may be some advantage in it's ability to keep debris encountered in daily carry out of the inner workings of the pistol.  (MAC Gauntlet test on youtube may not be scientific, but it can point out some strengths and weaknesses in a design.  The P07 did quite well in those tests and Tim pointed out that it may have performed better if he had actually used the double action to it's fullest potential. So, while I use Tim's tests mostly for entertainment, I think there can still be some useful info gleaned from his tests.  He just picked up a Px4 full size and posted that he was breaking it in to run through the Gauntlet test, so it could be interesting to see if the rotating barrel system has some vulnerabilities even though most carry guns won't be subjected to that level of treatment.)

 

I actually like both pistols well enough that I may give up my Glocks and buy one more each of the Px4 Compact and the P07 to have as back ups in the event that I did have to use one in a defensive situation and they had to be taken into evidence.

 

I will likely be running both of these pistols side by side at range range trips for the foreseeable future and seeing if one walks ahead of the other in preference.  I do really like the way my Px4 is set up.  The P07 could benefit from a similar high visibility front sight and a lighter hammer spring as well.  The slide finish on the Beretta is not super durable and is showing some pretty good wear after 6 months of moderate us, though that use has been heavy on drills that incorporate holster presentations.  But, even at the first 500 rounds I could tell the finish was possibly going to be an issue at some point.  The P07 has a melonited slide and after a wipe-down I can hardly see any wear on the exterior finish.  I'l see if I can get some pic posted of wear on the Px4 posted, along with some of the P07.  (Again the Px4 has about 4 times the use, but it still may be useful to see.)




#7 OFFLINE   SSGN_Doc

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Posted Oct. 05 2017 - 10:56 AM

The Px4 has some form of applied coating that you may be able to see some chips and scratches in.  There seems to still be another coating or treatment under this which I would guess to be a phosphate coat to help get the top coat to adhere better.  But basically the outer coating is a bit soft.  I figure I will wear this coating out and can decide what type of finish I would like to have done to it when it becomes necessary to refinish.  The barrel has some honest and unique wear patterns due to the rotating design.  Ernest Langdon had recently posted some pictures of wear on his full sized Px4 that just went over 36,000 rounds.  It seems like some of the wear hits a plateau and then stabilizes.

 

Here are some pics of the slide and barrel.  It can be hard to pick up some of the light scratches on the surface finish from holstering, but some of the flaking of the finish as well as some areas that are beginning to go bare, are starting to show up.

 

IMG_3532.jpg

 

IMG_3535.jpg

 

IMG_3536.jpg

 

IMG_3544.jpg

 

IMG_3541.jpg




#8 OFFLINE   SSGN_Doc

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Posted Oct. 05 2017 - 11:00 AM

The P07 for comparison shows vry little sign of having run even the 500 plus rounds through it (probably closer to 700 as I did somewhere between 3-4 boxes just for break-in and familiarization before logging my round count on it.)

 

IMG_3540.jpg

 

IMG_3539.jpg

 

IMG_3537.jpg




#9 OFFLINE   Retcop

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Posted Oct. 06 2017 - 10:14 AM

 

I have carried both and run some drills using a JM Custom Kydex AIWB holster.  Both seem to draw an point quite naturally.  First shot from draw times are very close.  The P07 seems to have a bit more muzzle rise, but both seem to come back on target quickly.  I'll have to run my shot timer with them side by side on my next trip to look at split times.

 

Both are seem to demonstrate an ability to be very mechanically accurate.  I am not wringing out the best accuracy with the P07 yet, but I have almost 4 times the trigger time with the Px4, and the reduced hammer spring weight in the Px4 does help with DA accuracy.

 

The P07 has a more palpable and tactile trigger reset, which can be useful if you are trying to focus on reset during recoil for a faster follow up.  

 

One thing I did note though on my last trip was that I had been working on cadence drills but wrapped up my session trying a few defensive loads in the P07 that I had already run through the Px4.  I was getting "Good" groups with the CZ at 7 yds with Magtech and Federal Champion aluminum cased ammo during the drills, but when I switched to the premium ammo and shot some 5 shot groups for accuracy it was producing one hole groups with Hornady Critical Duty and American Gunner ammo, and pretty tight groups with Winchester White Box 115 Gr "Personal Defense" JHP "bargain" loads that were on sale for $21 per 50 rounds last time I was in my local Sportsman's Warehouse.

 

I would be really hard pressed to recommend one of these pistols over the other though, because they seem to run and handle so similarly.  If racking a slide is difficult for someone, the Px4 may have a bit of an advantage, and felt recoil seems to be lower in the Px4 as well.  If someone wants something built like a tank, the P07 may be the way to go.  Based on the slide in frame design there may be some advantage in it's ability to keep debris encountered in daily carry out of the inner workings of the pistol.  (MAC Gauntlet test on youtube may not be scientific, but it can point out some strengths and weaknesses in a design.  The P07 did quite well in those tests and Tim pointed out that it may have performed better if he had actually used the double action to it's fullest potential. So, while I use Tim's tests mostly for entertainment, I think there can still be some useful info gleaned from his tests.  He just picked up a Px4 full size and posted that he was breaking it in to run through the Gauntlet test, so it could be interesting to see if the rotating barrel system has some vulnerabilities even though most carry guns won't be subjected to that level of treatment.)

 

I actually like both pistols well enough that I may give up my Glocks and buy one more each of the Px4 Compact and the P07 to have as back ups in the event that I did have to use one in a defensive situation and they had to be taken into evidence.

 

I will likely be running both of these pistols side by side at range range trips for the foreseeable future and seeing if one walks ahead of the other in preference.  I do really like the way my Px4 is set up.  The P07 could benefit from a similar high visibility front sight and a lighter hammer spring as well.  The slide finish on the Beretta is not super durable and is showing some pretty good wear after 6 months of moderate us, though that use has been heavy on drills that incorporate holster presentations.  But, even at the first 500 rounds I could tell the finish was possibly going to be an issue at some point.  The P07 has a melonited slide and after a wipe-down I can hardly see any wear on the exterior finish.  I'l see if I can get some pic posted of wear on the Px4 posted, along with some of the P07.  (Again the Px4 has about 4 times the use, but it still may be useful to see.)

 

Thank You !

Very well done, I appreciate  it.

John




#10 OFFLINE   Retcop

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Posted Oct. 06 2017 - 10:23 AM

I must admit I am not big on whatever coating they are using on the Storm.

Maybe Beretta needs to rethink the type of hard use that concealed carrying Americans are going

to be subjecting their pistols to.

 

I may be in the minority, but having to refinish a pistol that is already showing coating wear is not a small deal for me.

IMO, they would be better off using a nitriding or Tennifer type finish for wear and corrosion resistance.

 

As much as the Strom interests me (and the wife) knowing I would most likely have to refinish the pistol in a few years

would be a deal breaker for me. 

 

Once again, thank you.

Seeing these detailed reviews is a real treat, and I would love it if more of our members

would do the same with  purchases.   

 

John




#11 OFFLINE   SSGN_Doc

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Posted Oct. 06 2017 - 11:09 AM

John. Beretta offers a Concealed carry model that already includes all of the upgrades I installed on mine, plus it comes with the competition trigger system installed and has a Cerakoted slide instead of their standard finish. So, they have rethought it. Or if one opted to go with an Inox model it would have a stainless steel slide which would also possibly be better suited to carry. I chose to go with a base model to have the ability to adapt it as I went along to space out the cost. Also, I wadng sure if I was going to like the Px4 enough to commit to it.

I do agree that a melonited of nitrited slide would be preferable to me.

Also, Robar partnered with Ernest Langdon to offer Px4 compact carry models in different tier package levels which feature NP3 plated parts which is a super durable and self lubricating surface. But they do fetch a premium price.

Also do bear in mind that I have been trying to push this pistol a bit to see what I can do with it. It has had lots of holster presentations and holstering a in a Kydex holster. Also lots of drills for practice.

Edited by SSGN_Doc, Oct. 06 2017 - 11:17 AM.



#12 OFFLINE   SSGN_Doc

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Posted Oct. 06 2017 - 11:13 AM

Of course there is the P07 option as well. Only issue for you wife may be cycling the slide. If you can find both pustols in s shop and handle them you would get a better idea.

Edited by SSGN_Doc, Oct. 06 2017 - 11:15 AM.



#13 OFFLINE   SSGN_Doc

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Posted Oct. 07 2017 - 06:30 PM

One more point that I found out and neglected to mention. If one desires to attach a weapon mounted light, the P07 has a more practical picatinny rail that can accept a full sized light such as the Streamlight TLR1. The compact Beretta will need a compact light as the accessory rail is cut too close to the trigger guard to accommodate a full sized light.

This may not matter to those buying for concealed carry, but I'd someone is looking for a "Do it all" handgun that can also do nightstand duty or share a light with a full sized gun this may be a factor to be considered.


#14 OFFLINE   12131

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Posted Oct. 12 2017 - 10:07 PM

When did these guns become midsize pistols? Aren't they about the same size as the G19?

It's like the Corolla, as we all know, is a compact car. And then, when we go to rent a car, they all call it a midsize. It ain't a midsize, man. It's a compact. Ok, I'll get off my soap box, now.  :segrin:




#15 OFFLINE   SSGN_Doc

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Posted Oct. 14 2017 - 02:42 PM

When did these guns become midsize pistols? Aren't they about the same size as the G19?
It's like the Corolla, as we all know, is a compact car. And then, when we go to rent a car, they all call it a midsize. It ain't a midsize, man. It's a compact. Ok, I'll get off my soap box, now.  :segrin:


You may have a point. But, since the intro of the Glock 19 and then the Glock 26, the market has changed a bit and there are more "compact" options that could qualify as sub compact. But liking at pistols like XDM, S&W M&P compact, (pre-2.0 version), then Shields, XDS and other single stack pistols in 9mm and larger, the 'Ol G19 and Sig 229 and Beretta Px4 compact don't seem so compact any more. I think of them kind of like 1980s Buick Skylarks. Not really small, but not as big as a Century.

So, I blame market change.

But it isn't really wrong to call them compact. But to new shooters compact may make them think of something considerably smaller. In fact you may be more correct.

I guess I may have bought into the "Nutnfancy" philosophy that not all "compact pistols" are really that compact. To me, shaving less than an inch off a slide or grip or both is limited in how compact it makes something.

Maybe I'm screwed up in my way of thinking.





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