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AR Pistol Build Troubleshoot, Need Help


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#1 OFFLINE   NewARBuilder87

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Posted Jul. 20 2018 - 11:50 PM

Ok, after FINALLY finishing my first AR build, it was time to test it, more than a single shot. I'll start where the issues started. Initially, when I test-fired the single round for the first time, it was plain to even a newbie such as myself it was WAY over-gassed. The bolt didn't lock back on the empty mag, recoil was more violent than other AR's I've shot, and one time the bolt even caught the casing before it cleared the ejection port door, stovepipe jam. So, after installing an adjustable gas block to tone it down some, I went back to test fire. First round fired wonderfully, ejected great, and loaded up the next round, all like it should functioning properly. Here is where the issue started, round 2. After being successfully loaded, pulled the trigger and CLICK... WTF I'm thinking. Tried again, a few times, all resulting in the same, 1st shot fires, second gets a CLICK. Now I've been reading and reading some more all over, and I was relieved to hear I wasn't the first person with this issue, far from it in fact. The only problem with all that I've read is despite begin the same, or highly similar, issue occurring, there isn't one cause, I found out, to my dismay, that there are a number of reason this could happen. I did a FCG function check, and it passed well, disco grabbed after recharging the hammer while holding the trigger and released, another pull and it released the hammer like its all supposed to. NOW, I'm stuck, it isn't dirty or worn, it's all brand new parts, despite that I've still cleaned the you-know-what out of everything my tools could possibly clean, even places that wouldn't affect what's going on. Oil, it wasn't soaked, but I wasn't shy with it by any standard, and still the issue occurs.

Where I'm at now, going to try and tune the gas block as best as I can, one round at a time, see if that helps. Only thing I can think of is being a new bolt and barrel, and still likely too much gas, when the bolt goes back in to battery, it isn't 100% closed. I haven't had the time or opportunity to test this yet, so I'm taking all advice, thoughts, and causes from y'all more experienced AR shooters until I can test my theory. I'll update, hopefully before the weekend is out, so we'll all know a little more and hopefully get this issue narrowed down and solved as quickly, easily, and the least expensive as possible. Before anyone asks, the disco spring is in properly, as is the trigger and hammer springs. My plan is to tune the gas until I can get the bolt to lock after the last round, while doing so, try the forward assist after the first shot to see if the bolt moves any. As always, I appreciate y'alls time and help. I thought I'd be able to do it all by my lonesome, but I've obviously got much to learn yet, and everyone needs a little help now and again. Yes, it did take me a week of frustration and debate even ASK for help, guess it's one of my bad habits, but I learn best the hands-on way, but when it comes to risking possible person injury, or worse, its time to swallow pride and try something the smart way. Looking forward to hearing what y'all think, and if you need any further info, pics, or whatever from me to help a diagnosis, just LMK, and I'll try to get it on here as quickly as I can.

Thanks again everyone, as always, be safe and don't forget to have fun!!!

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#2 OFFLINE   TackleberryMCS

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Posted Jul. 21 2018 - 07:08 AM

Which gas system (carbine or pistol)? What type of BCG and buffer system (specifically which buffer) are you using? What type of ammo?




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#3 OFFLINE   NewARBuilder87

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Posted Jul. 21 2018 - 09:37 AM

Sorry, obvious things I can't believe I didn't include, here's what I'm running:

-Carbine gas system with a Syrac Ordinance adjustable gas block
-Federal Premium American Eagle FMJ 5.56mm 55-Grain Ammunition
-Standard carbine buffer(2.9 or 3oz) with a standard carbine spring
-BCG is I'm not too sure the make, wasn't cheap though, a NiB Full Auto BCG, weighs either 11.5 or 12oz, I'll LYK which later when I can weigh it again. I'll post pics if that'll help.

Please feel free to ask whatever you think may help a diagnosis.

6561373c8ca1f645b925b44af5f20207.jpgc442c2cf0be82cc15de187b9f38908a4.jpgd92d926f2611b0dcc041482744ad908d.jpg9f4915314ee6cfd355c746c683e8a823.jpg

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#4 OFFLINE   bamashooter

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Posted Jul. 21 2018 - 08:00 PM

Greetings. With the receivers separated and no ammunition, how easily or difficultly does the bcg / charging handle close and lock into position (forward position)? Especially make sure again the gas tube slides perfectly into the gas key as though they were all greased up. BTW, are you running this lubed properly? I prefer a bit wet but not stupidly where it's dripping / oozing, etc. Exactly, meaning size, caliber, brand, model barrel do you have? Is you adjustable gas block the only one you have? Is you bcg / bolt carrier the only one you have?




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#5 OFFLINE   NewARBuilder87

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Posted Jul. 22 2018 - 04:28 AM

As far as the bolt closing, I can NOW ride it all the way home, receivers closed. Open, slides like butter until it gets to the bolt going in to battery part, but it only requires a little assistance to lock up. When I first got it though, it was a little sticky, not wanting to close up all the way and sticking like a b**** when trying to charge.

The gas line and key line up as well as can be, no rubbing or friction, just sliding like a well-oiled machine. Which brings me to that, oil. As you said, I can't stand "dripping" wet firearm, but I'm pretty liberal with the oil. I've got a nice little precision oiler too so I'm able to get those hard to reach places. As far as the barrel goes, not the best, but its an AR Stoner, 10.5in, stainless steel, 1:8 twist, chambered for 5.56 NATO, and I got it brand new from MIDWAYUSA. The gas block isn't the only one I've got, I have a regular one(non-adjustable), but its the one I replaced with the adjustable one due to being way over-gassed. And the BCG is also not the only one I've got, I have a RRA AR15 (semi-auto) chromed BCG, and the issue persists with that one installed too.

Unfortunately I haven't had the time or opportunity to be able to tune the gas block, even 1 shot at a time, or test if turning it to safe and back to fire after the 1st shot makes a difference. It SHOULDN'T, being I ran through the function test and it performed as its supposed to. Its also debris and dirt free, minus the oil of course. I clean the hell out of it more than regularly, even if not necessary sometimes just due to dust and dog hair, LoL. Really, my next step is replace the buffer spring with one of those JP tuned ground centerless springs, and either and H1 or H2 buffer. IDK if that'll solve anything, but it can't hurt to upgrade.

Until I'm actually able to go and shoot freely in order to run diagnosis, I won't know what the issue is or what's causing it. I've read some people with the same issue, sometimes doesn't start until after xxx amount of rounds successfully fired. Some it does it a few times and then it starts running fine without anything physically being done to the firearm. I'm hoping it just needs more rounds run through it, in order to get past that "break-in" period, being everything on the gun is brand spanking new.

If there's any other info anyone could use that could possibly use that may help, please ask. Even if there's a pic of something that won't be of any help, I can do that too, LoL, like the FCG. Thanks again to everyone who helps put their heads together, WE CAN solve this issue. Please don't hesitate to ask whatever or pics of whatever, this issue has me pretty frustrated, and my 300BLK build is suffering due to this major inconvenience.

ANYWAYS, feel free to ask whatever, and I'll answer it to the best of my ability. Pic requests, as long as they don't get too crazy. Thanks again everyone, I seriously can't thank y'all enough for helping me with this.

P.S. For whatever reason, I'm having the same issue with my AR rifle build, but one thing at a time...

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Edited by NewARBuilder87, Jul. 22 2018 - 04:33 AM.



#6 OFFLINE   bamashooter

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Posted Jul. 22 2018 - 09:11 AM

With everything you're doing and swapping, sounds like the receiver is out of spec and it only takes a tiny bit for stuff not to work. I didn't miss anything where you tried these parts in another receiver with same results did I?

 

There's a lot to reading here so I'll just ask, what symptoms are telling you "over-gassed" and do you know, self-measured or literature, the diameter of the barrel gas port?




#7 OFFLINE   NewARBuilder87

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Posted Jul. 23 2018 - 01:00 PM

I have not tried it in my other receiver, mainly because its pretty different, and I didn't think it would yield much info, but I will when I get the chance. Besides, the rifle build has issues of its own, so results be even less tell, and more confusing, most likely.

I came to the conclusion it was over-gassed from the way it fired, it was more violent, and really pushed that bolt around pretty hard. So much so, I'd get stove pipes because the bolt returned to battery so fast it would catch the brass before it cleared the ejection port door. And your next question I don't know the exact answer to, but I remember it being wider than many others I've seen at the carbine length.

My Thoughts: Once I tune the gas block better, and get some more rounds put through the system, that should solve the problem, I hope. A heavier buffer and maybe one of those SI flat wire springs, then I think I would be good to move on to the FINE tuning, upgrades, and accessories/sights. Unfortunately I've been busier than hell, running my company, 8-12hrs a day 7 days a week, on a regular basis I might add, so getting out to the range is only a dream at the moment. When the time comes, I will be jumping on it, and finally get more answers/solutions than questions. Until then, anyone who has any thoughts, ideas, or insight, I'd love to hear what you have to say. Thanks again everyone, any more questions or picture requests to further learn the whole picture of the problem, feel free to ask. I'll LYK as soon as I manage a trip to the range, you'll be the first to know how it goes. Thanks again everyone.

***UPDATE on my BCG, if it's relevant, the total mass of it is 11.57oz, 1.535 bolt, 9.46 carrier, the rest was FP, FP retainer, and cam pin. Waiting still to find out brand or manufacturer.

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#8 ONLINE   gshayd

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Posted Jul. 28 2018 - 10:14 PM

If a bolt doesn't lock back that means you don't enough gas to push the bolt back to lock using the 1 round magazine test. The harder the bolt comes back the harder the case Hits the deflector. the faster the bolt comes back really fast when the case hits the deflector it will go forward if the pressure is lower and the bolt travels slower it will start ejecting back towards 3 to 5 o'clock from the muzzle.




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#9 OFFLINE   NewARBuilder87

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Posted Jul. 29 2018 - 08:29 PM

It did not lock any of the times I ran a single round through the mag. Unfortunately, that was only 2 times and in different occasions, neither time, sadly, didn't pay attention to the details that mattered. I do know that it isn't short-stroking, when I load 2 or more, it always ejected and loaded fine, minus the bolt carrier catching the casing the one time, commonly known as a Stove-pipe jam, from my understanding. Also, the shots that went BANG when I pulled the trigger, were sharp, fast, and much more violent than the other AR's I've fired.

I've also learned that others with the same barrel as I have, some have reported short-stroking issues, which they say was caused by the gas port being too small a diameter, and simply drilling it slightly larger. I don't know the exact size of my gas port, I couldn't even measure it accurately myself, lacking the tool to do precision measurements like that. What's the name of it, I can't remember the NAME for said instrument, which makes it hard to purchase. I can say I remember it being larger than I've seen, which if is actually turns out over-sized, would definitely cause issues, but adjustable gas block is installed to eliminate the problem from that area.

Tried my best to get to the range today, and got to where going would of resulted in 30mins, if I was lucky, of range time, and I might not have the problem or problems identified and without a solution would be s disappointing range trip. To top it off, I've got my XD back with its new upgrades, 7 mags, and about 800 rounds ready to tear apart some paper. So tomorrow is my new goal, if I can get myself at least 2hrs, probably not needed, just a good, solid hour would be perfect, but just in case I need the extra time or decide to purchase more rounds, the option to shoot all day doesn't sound bad, but no way I can wait for that day. I'll try my damndest, and update tomorrow regardless. Any extra questions or insight, feel free to chime in, lets please just stay on topic and keep replies helpful and intellectual, beyond function checks and backwards springs, thanks all the same

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Edited by NewARBuilder87, Jul. 29 2018 - 08:32 PM.



#10 ONLINE   smb5769

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Posted Jul. 29 2018 - 11:16 PM

What about welding tip drills? Use the smooth end and work up til you get to one that fits snug and then pull it out and mike it.


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#11 OFFLINE   NewARBuilder87

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Posted Jul. 30 2018 - 05:06 PM

What about welding tip drills? Use the smooth end and work up til you get to one that fits snug and then pull it out and mike it.

My apologies, but your statement went completely over my head. I don't understand what you meant, so if you would please explain what you wanted me to do, this time in terms that someone other than a gunsmith can understand, I would greatly appreciate it. And I have a little less than 4hrs to hit the range, finally, and I'll be sure to update y'all assuming everything goes as planned tonight.

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#12 ONLINE   Longhair

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Posted Jul. 30 2018 - 05:27 PM

He's talking about using the smooth end of numbered drill bits to determine the ID of the gas port.


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#13 ONLINE   smb5769

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Posted Jul. 30 2018 - 06:59 PM

He's talking about using the smooth end of numbered drill bits to determine the ID of the gas port.

Right, and then if you don't know what the number means either use a tip drill chart or a set of calipers or a micrometer to measure the drill bit that fits the hole right. I don't recommend trying to mess with that hole yourself though. I'd take a gas port resizing to a smith, that way if he buggers it up then it's on the smith to fix it. If you bugger it up then it's your baby.


#14 OFFLINE   NewARBuilder87

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Posted Jul. 30 2018 - 09:11 PM

Thank you for dumbing that down, I understand exactly now, and I'll have that info at some point in time tonight, thank you for the great suggestion. And regardless of what my findings entail, I assure you I WILL NOT be making any modifications to anything such ad that. That is smith, or machinist work, and I am FAR from being either. Can't picture myself with a high-speed drill bearing down on my barrel with a drill bit... Barrel may not be the best, but it would more than likely be junk if I attempted a mod such as that.

Well, finally made it to the range, with a little less than an hour to shoot and 3 guns to fire. Results were not what I was going for, but learned a lot.

NOW, the adjustable gas block is the problem. I knew there was something not right about it, and now I know. So basically in trying to solve a problem, I created an entirely new one, go figure, LMAO. Unfortunately I didn't have the time today to swap it out with a regular gas block, so no progress on my 1st build, back to square one, and hit the range again.

However, I haven't mentioned my second build, it on the other hand performed flawlessly!!! 1 round, fired, bolt locked. 2 rounds loaded, both fired, ejected, bolt lock up. So having 1 gun to fire still, I put a 30rd mag down range without a hiccup, so one G2G, one still in testing.

Wrong forums, but my XD with the PRP trigger kit was a dream to shoot now, and the laser guide rod is spot on at 25ft, I wasn't though. Because I was basically out of time, it was hard to focus on grouping, but as well as I did do, can't wait to see when I'm in top for and in no rush.

Thanks again everyone who has offered valuable input, I'm changing out the gas block tonight and when fate finally allows me to shoot again, we'll see where it's at from there.

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Edited by NewARBuilder87, Jul. 30 2018 - 09:16 PM.



#15 OFFLINE   bamashooter

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Posted Jul. 30 2018 - 10:15 PM

What problem did you discover with the adjustable gas block?  Here's a "numbered" drill bit chart w/ associated diameters btw. I use calipers (very taboo to do so) and easily get within 1/1000 of known diameters. Sometimes a machinist rule.

 

KUPFQyR.jpg

 

If you're ever interested, you can also get pin gauges on ebay from affordable to crazy costly.  They come in plus and minus. For AR crap, minus is good enough and usually a bit less costly and accurate enough.

 

Glad to see #2 running well.




#16 OFFLINE   NewARBuilder87

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Posted Jul. 31 2018 - 10:09 PM

That's a helpful chart, thank you. The adjustable gas block I felt wasn't right from the start. I couldn't find one exactly like it either, but I've found out it's a Gen 1 BRO block but its branded as Syrac Ordinance. What stuck out most to me was they're supposed to have a little click when you adjust it, which it never did. So silly me, checking it out and realizing screw in, less gas, out for more, you could see the adjustment screw blocking the gas port and opening up, so it should work, right? WRONG, starting from the first shot, I could tell something wasn't right. It fired, but the bolt didn't make it back far enough to eject the casing. So opening it up all the way, tok gassy, no bolt lock, and that's what I was going for, obviously. So to shorten all the details, after about 50 rounds, and every setting, which couldn't really identify the setting because it doesn't click like it's supposed to, I had a wide variety of issues, all except firing, it did that every time, so narrowed the issue to the upper area I guess, LoL.

So i decided mainly due to lack of time, to call it, swap the block out for a regular one, and see what happens next time. In the meantime, I still lack the tools to accurately measure the gas port, but since it's over-gassed, I figure I'll get an H2 or H3 buffer and a JP spring probably couldn't hurt. I just keep kicking myself though for not swapping my BCG out just to eliminate that as the problem, or identify it, so until I'm able to shoot again, we can only speculate.

Thanks again all, I'll update as soon as I'm able, which for $13, I'll go for an hour again before they close just to KNOW if its fixed or still has issues. And I can usually make it there by 7pm, next couple days, but thanks again everyone

***FYI, I'll likely never use that adjustable gas block, so if anyone would be interested in it to see if they can figure it out, send me a message. Not trying to sell it, cover shipping and I'll send it

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Edited by NewARBuilder87, Jul. 31 2018 - 10:12 PM.

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