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Deer/coyote hunting ammo?


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#21 OFFLINE   saltydawg

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Posted Feb. 28 2011 - 05:19 PM

The 223 AR-15 is by far the best deer firearm and cartridge period: I have shot over 30 deer on my 20 acres here in Michigan with the 223 round. If someone says it's not powerful enough then they are using the wrong type of bullet.
My first choice for a deadly deer round is the DRT in 60gr. (The deer just drop)
Second choice is the Blackhills 60gr soft core. (The deer just drop)

Let me also say that the DRT bullet not only drops the deer, but the deer are not even able to move one inch to the right, left, forward, or backward. (They just simply drop)
I would not recommend a V-max or varmint type round when hunting deer regardless of size.
I will also mention that the 55gr soft core will also drop the deer in there tracks.
I have 4 boys and we all hunt on our Michigan property and we all use the AR-15's in 223 calibers. Never has a deer ran more than 10 feet before dropping. I've shot them with 30-06's, 30-30', Ruger Mini 30 in 762x39's etc. I've lost alot of deer with the heavier bullets and never lost a deer with the 223 round.
The 223 round expels all its energy within the deer, seldom an exit wound. Where the heavier calibers just pass through them with the bullets ending up in a tree 50 yards behind them. This is not proper usage of energy.
I dont care what kind of elephant gun you want to shoot a deer with, but I am telling you than me and my boys have never lost a single deer using the 223 bullet in either blackhills or DRT. Check out the DRT website, do a google search under DRT. Knowledge is what people need, not stories. (See DRT Ammo) under google search. The last deer I shot with the 60gr DRT had nothing left in it but jello.... Yes, the 223 drops deer faster than any other firearm as long as you are using the correct bullet!


Agreed.... Shot placement and bullet selection....


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#22 OFFLINE   helotaxi

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Posted Mar. 01 2011 - 04:58 PM

I have often heard that you want 1000 foot / pounds or more of energy in a deer round. The 75 grain Vmax (TAP) has that to a little over 100 yards. A 100 grain 243 bullet has it to 400 yards and a 150 grain 308 bullet has it to 600 yards..

Just to clarify, Hornady TAP uses a 75gn BTHP match bullet. 60gn is the largest VMax .223 bullet.

The whole 1k ft-lbs thing is mostly crap. To kill an animal with a boiler room shot you are looking to either punch large holes in vital organs causing them to bleed out or suffocate or cause enough shock to cause the major organs to shut down or a combination of the two.

Elmer Keith killed a lot of deer in his days with a big slow moving bullet by "letting a lot of air in and a lot of blood out." Some of those guns didn't make 1k ft-lbs at the muzzle.

Conversely lots of game has been lost after being shot with loads carying way more energy than that either because of poor shot placement of improper bullet selection.

I would have no problem going after deer with a .223, but I would pick my shots and pass if the shot wasn't there; and I would definitely spend the $$ on premium bullets for the job. 62gn Partitions or 70gn TSX would be my bullets of choice. Nice thing about a .223 is that practicing and getting to know the rifle isn't punishing on the shoulder or wallet. The likelihood of being able to confidently place that shot when the time comes would be higher as a result. I love the .243 for the same reasons though ammo is a bit more expensive (2x the powder from a reloading standpoint).


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#23 OFFLINE   RamBowMike

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Posted Mar. 01 2011 - 06:11 PM

Just to clarify, Hornady TAP uses a 75gn BTHP match bullet. 60gn is the largest VMax .223 bullet.

The whole 1k ft-lbs thing is mostly crap. To kill an animal with a boiler room shot you are looking to either punch large holes in vital organs causing them to bleed out or suffocate or cause enough shock to cause the major organs to shut down or a combination of the two.

Elmer Keith killed a lot of deer in his days with a big slow moving bullet by "letting a lot of air in and a lot of blood out." Some of those guns didn't make 1k ft-lbs at the muzzle.

Conversely lots of game has been lost after being shot with loads carying way more energy than that either because of poor shot placement of improper bullet selection.

I would have no problem going after deer with a .223, but I would pick my shots and pass if the shot wasn't there; and I would definitely spend the $$ on premium bullets for the job. 62gn Partitions or 70gn TSX would be my bullets of choice. Nice thing about a .223 is that practicing and getting to know the rifle isn't punishing on the shoulder or wallet. The likelihood of being able to confidently place that shot when the time comes would be higher as a result. I love the .243 for the same reasons though ammo is a bit more expensive (2x the powder from a reloading standpoint).


Elmer Keith had his opinion just as we all have butt holes: In his day he believed the heavier bullet (like a train was the true answer) today science has proven him utterly wrong and has shown that it is "VELOCITY" that creates quick kills, not a slow moving freight train. Elmer was a good man, but void of science and facts in his early days. In his books he always said (In his opinion). The truth is that it is velocity and quick expulsion that creates the most humane kill. How many animals blood trails do you think Elmer Keith had to follow to find his trophy? Todays high velocity bullets (on average) drop deer within 10 feet of where its been expelled.
Lastly, It is my scientific opinion that the new DRT ammunition is by far the best and most advanced high tech deer ammunition available today especially for the 223 caliber rifle. Short of bow hunting season its the only ammunition I will ever use for harvesting venison.


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#24 OFFLINE   helotaxi

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Posted Mar. 02 2011 - 12:43 AM

Elmer Keith had his opinion just as we all have butt holes: In his day he believed the heavier bullet (like a train was the true answer) today science has proven him utterly wrong and has shown that it is "VELOCITY" that creates quick kills, not a slow moving freight train. Elmer was a good man, but void of science and facts in his early days. In his books he always said (In his opinion). The truth is that it is velocity and quick expulsion that creates the most humane kill. How many animals blood trails do you think Elmer Keith had to follow to find his trophy? Todays high velocity bullets (on average) drop deer within 10 feet of where its been expelled.
Lastly, It is my scientific opinion that the new DRT ammunition is by far the best and most advanced high tech deer ammunition available today especially for the 223 caliber rifle. Short of bow hunting season its the only ammunition I will ever use for harvesting venison.

Science doesn't kill things and all the theory in the world can't erase the fact that exsanguination will make something graveyard dead. A big hole through the heart will do the same thing. Big game hunters in Africa shoot big non-expanding slugs as well. Penetration outdoes shock on big animals. Think that shock does a thing during archery season? I mean that 350fps arrow is making what, 100fpe? :thumb:

You're entitled to your opinion, but even the "experts" today disagree on the best way to dispatch an animal.


#25 OFFLINE   RamBowMike

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Posted Mar. 02 2011 - 01:00 AM

Science doesn't kill things and all the theory in the world can't erase the fact that exsanguination will make something graveyard dead. A big hole through the heart will do the same thing. Big game hunters in Africa shoot big non-expanding slugs as well. Penetration outdoes shock on big animals. Think that shock does a thing during archery season? I mean that 350fps arrow is making what, 100fpe? :thumb:

You're entitled to your opinion, but even the "experts" today disagree on the best way to dispatch an animal.

Just try the new DRT and you will be amazed.It's the new revolutionary bullet: My words alone cannot express the devastation. You have to shoot a dear to be wise, I don't really care what bullet you use, but the DRT drops them on the spot. At least give them a try. Or stay with what your using. (I don't track my der0


#26 OFFLINE   Jaeger48

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Posted Mar. 02 2011 - 01:21 AM

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#27 OFFLINE   THESPECIALIST

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Posted Mar. 05 2011 - 09:03 AM

Just try the new DRT and you will be amazed.It's the new revolutionary bullet: My words alone cannot express the devastation. You have to shoot a dear to be wise, I don't really care what bullet you use, but the DRT drops them on the spot. At least give them a try. Or stay with what your using. (I don't track my deer anymore) thy la where they are shot


What happens when that FRANGIBLE bullet hits bone? Me personally, I'll save the frangible ammo for shoot houses and mild steel targets.

Since you said velocity is what makes quick kills, I guess I'll just stick with my old 30 caliber 165gr SP's cruising just over 2700fps (basically the same speed the manuf. claims for the DRT ammo) and creating over DOUBLE the energy of that round. It also gives me the ability to take that through the shoulder shot if need be without worrying about losing a wounded deer.

I'd also like to see the study that shows that

Todays high velocity bullets (on average) drop deer within 10 feet of where its been expelled.

:mf_popcorn:

Edited by THESPECIALIST, Mar. 05 2011 - 09:05 AM.



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#28 OFFLINE   RamBowMike

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Posted Mar. 05 2011 - 09:21 AM

The DRT bullet will go right through the bone before expulsion: Obviously you have not been to the DRT web site. There must be fluid available for the bullet to expand. There is no lead in the DRT bullet to mushroom when hitting bone. The bullet is filled with a very fine powder of tin & copper. (Like baby powder) While the bullet is spinning it will hit its target and will not spread the fine powder until it touches a liquid which is usually 1 1/2" inside the hide. Once the bullet touches a liquid it expels the dust and makes an internal hole about the size of a soccerball. No other bullet can do this. The last deer I shot using the 223 60gr DRT just simply dropped. When I opened it up, the lungs were nothing but liquid, no exit wound either. The bullets energy seems to made exactly for whitetail deer. Never seen anything drop a deer so fast and I've been deer hunting for nearly 50 years. I own 125 acres in Cadilac Michigan and 20 acres in Milan Michigan. I have 4 grown boys that all hunt with me using the AR-15 223's with me. My one son shot a deer using the 60gr blackhills soft point and the deer dropped within 50 yards. But the DRT's drop them on the spot.
There always seems to be negative people with negative answers and I guess that will never change.
I dont really care if you use the 223 bullet or not, I'm just saying that in my opinion nothing drops a deer faster than the 223. (Not even a 30-06) Perhaps this is why most states are now allowing the use of the 223 bullet for deer hunting where they were not previously allowed. Our ammo industry is making high tech ammo to drop game faster than ever. Velocity using the correct bullet is key, not over velocity using the wrong bullet!

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#29 OFFLINE   THESPECIALIST

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Posted Mar. 05 2011 - 10:15 AM

The DRT bullet will go right through the bone before expulsion: Obviously you have not been to the DRT web site.
-RamBowMike


Taken straight from there site

DRT™ lead-free frangible projectile is exactly that revolutionary round. The bullet disintegrates on contact with a solid surface.




#30 OFFLINE   hwcopela

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Posted Mar. 05 2011 - 10:32 AM

I'm not just the president, I'm also a customer!


Hahaha, nice...


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#31 OFFLINE   RamBowMike

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Posted Mar. 05 2011 - 07:50 PM

Yes, the DRT bullet does fragment on contact with a hard surface. But what the web site is speaking of is shooting steel targets plates, not a deers front shoulder. I've shot many of deer in the front shoulder with the 60gr DRT and the bullet continues on and will not fragment and explode until it hits a liquid. A steel shooting plate has no liquid to allow the bullet to explode inside of anything.
Not only does the front leg pretty much fall off, but the bullet continues another 12 to 14 inches while exploding approximately the size of a soccer ball. They are devastating rounds. In truth, it is the only deer round I will ever use. However, I still like the 60gr 223 Blackhills soft core too. Either one will drop the deer unless you hit its foot or tail. You wont be tracking your deer even if you hit the deer in the shoulder. I'm not speaking of Elk or Moose, I am speaking of whitetail deer. (They just drop) :thumb:


#32 OFFLINE   RamBowMike

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Posted Mar. 06 2011 - 07:14 PM

REPLYING TO THE SPECIALIST: This comes straight from Dustin Worrell the owner of DRT, Specialist Quote was:The DRT bullet will go right through the bone before expulsion: Obviously you have not been to the DRT web site.

OBVIOUSLY THE SPECIALIST IS CONSIDERED BY THE OWNER OF DRT AS SORELY MISTAKEN...

The following quote comes from Dustin Worrell owner of DRT.
One thing you will learn is that people (THE "NON" SPECIALIST) that haven't shot this bullet and have never used it are "experts" on it. (LIKE THE "NON" SPECIALIST) They all think it is just like any other frangible bullet that has ever been made. They are sorely mistaken. It will bore through bone and then open when it hits the organs. We make it so that it has a delayed expansion of about 2". So basically the bullet acts like a solid for 2" and then opens up a can off whoopbutt on the organs.
Thanks,
DW

Now what do you think of that MR. Specialist? You are sorely mistaken as I had tried to explain to you in earlier forums. I've shot deer through the front leg and they the bullet still makes it through and makes an internal hole the size of a basketball. If you remain an unbeliever then so be it.
My dad always told me that a wise man will listen to a fool, but a fool will listen to know man...


#33 OFFLINE   RamBowMike

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Posted Mar. 06 2011 - 07:43 PM

Then use your African big game gun on squirrels and rabbits: (A whitetail deer is not a water buffalo) And a 223 DRT round will pierce through any bone of a whitetail deer and drop it where it stands. The deer I've shot never even moved one inch to the right or left, they all just dropped even with front shoulder hits. This wont happen with a slow moving 45 caliber bullet. It's the bullets velocity and type of bullet that makes em drop where there shot. Lastly, too much bullet power just goes right through the deer much like an arrow and the actual energy is behind the deer and if it was a powerful bullet, then the energy is in the tree 50 yards behind the deer. The proper bullet should never make a pass through and if it does, it was wasted energy. Proper energy allows full expulsion within the deer and that is exactly what the DRT bullet does with reliability.

There is nothing more I can say to convince argumentative type people the Truth and devastation that the DRT bullet reliably performs. I have no interest in DRT, I'm just a deer hunter thats been hunting for nearly 50 years. My family has 125 acres that we regularly get dozens of whitetail deer each year. This includes bow season too.

I don't track my deer anymore when I use DRT ammo.


#34 OFFLINE   HairyToe

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Posted Mar. 06 2011 - 10:18 PM

:mf_popcorn:


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#35 OFFLINE   THESPECIALIST

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Posted Mar. 07 2011 - 07:01 AM

REPLYING TO THE SPECIALIST: This comes straight from Dustin Worrell the owner of DRT, Specialist Quote was:The DRT bullet will go right through the bone before expulsion: Obviously you have not been to the DRT web site.

OBVIOUSLY THE SPECIALIST IS CONSIDERED BY THE OWNER OF DRT AS SORELY MISTAKEN...

The following quote comes from Dustin Worrell owner of DRT.
One thing you will learn is that people (THE "NON" SPECIALIST) that haven't shot this bullet and have never used it are "experts" on it. (LIKE THE "NON" SPECIALIST) They all think it is just like any other frangible bullet that has ever been made. They are sorely mistaken. It will bore through bone and then open when it hits the organs. We make it so that it has a delayed expansion of about 2". So basically the bullet acts like a solid for 2" and then opens up a can off whoopbutt on the organs.
Thanks,
DW

Now what do you think of that MR. Specialist? You are sorely mistaken as I had tried to explain to you in earlier forums. I've shot deer through the front leg and they the bullet still makes it through and makes an internal hole the size of a basketball. If you remain an unbeliever then so be it.
My dad always told me that a wise man will listen to a fool, but a fool will listen to know man...


First off, I never said the bullet would go right through the bone. I also never said anything was any more than my opinion. Now, that being said. If you trust a frangible round to make 100% clean kills, no matter the shot angle or bone, good for you. I have one major problem though. The bullet is designed to fragment after penetrating 2" into soft tissue (from the owner of DRT as you claim). Our deer down here are really small compared to the ones you guys have up north, but a shoulder shot will still have to penetrate at least 2" of muscle tissue before it then has to penetrate the bone and another 8" or so to get to the vitals. What happens when it's beginning to fragment and then hits a bone? Common sense says it blows apart, just my opinion though.

I'm not exclusively against using this round for hunting deer. I don't trust ANY 223 round for a 100% clean kill rate. Yes, shot placement has a big effect on what the round does. 223 lacks the energy necessary to provide guaranteed clean kills unless you are taking a head or neck shot (my opinion).

My 2 main hunting rounds are a 150gr Nosler BT in my 308 and a 165gr BTSP in my 308 (not 30-06). Which round is in the chamber depends on where I'm hunting at the time. That Nosler, has NEVER lost a deer and neither has the BTSP when they left my barrel. Do they both do massive damage, yes. Are they both proven designs, yes. Is it possible to only wound a deer with them, yes any idiot with a gun can take a bad shot. So what if they exit, that means they are doing their job with energy to spare, but I do recover about 50% of the Noslers from the opposing shoulder depending on the shot angle and range.

Both of those rounds are designed for rapid, controlled expansion. The DRT basically explodes. That's the major difference there. Once the DRT fragments it loses energy almost instantly, hence no exit wound. Sorry, a hunting bullet that fragments is IMO a flawed design no matter what caliber it is. It relies on the "shrapnel" from the core to take out the vitals. I'd rather put a bullet through them carrying a massive wound channel from shoulder to shoulder, just like the bullet was designed to do. At long range, both of those bullets will still carry enough energy and velocity to do exactly the same job they will do at 50 yards.

If you trust that round, good for you. When that buck of a lifetime walks out 200+ yards away and refuses to come any closer, that 223 doesn't seem quite as adequate does it? I'll keep my 308 and wax the arse on anything that walks out inside 600 yards with my "wrong bullets at the wrong velocities", and yes, they will drop like a wet rag.

When it comes to killing something, overkill is a matter of opinion. Inadequate is a heart breaker. I'd much rather lose a couple pounds of bloodshot meat than watch a wounded animal run off because the bullet didn't perform as intended. I'm not bashing you for using that round, just saying it isn't the be all end all round for deer.

Edit to add: Those bullets do seem adequate for 'yotes though.
And I still want to see that study that shows (your words, not mine)

Todays high velocity bullets (on average) drop deer within 10 feet of where its been expelled.


I've been reading reviews for the DRT 60gr (what few I could find from experienced reviewers) and I found one that was quite interesting. The writer shot 10 deer personally on a cull hunt on property owned by the owner of DRT. Nowhere did he claim to experience 100% shot/drop in its tracks lethality. Some of the deer ran as far as 70 yards before expiring from massive blood loss. Overall there were 20 deer taken on that hunt with 3 requiring follow-up shots. 15% of the deer needed to be shot again to dispatch them. What he didn't mention was how many of those 20 were taken with head or neck shots.

Like I said before, it may be the best bullet for boiler room shots on a deer for 223. It may not be, it's too new for that to be thrown out there. But to say it's they best bullet for deer period is utterly ridiculous.

Edited by THESPECIALIST, Mar. 07 2011 - 11:15 AM.



#36 OFFLINE   RamBowMike

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Posted Mar. 08 2011 - 11:18 AM

I'm not exclusively against using this round for hunting deer. I don't trust ANY 223 round for a 100% clean kill rate. Yes, shot placement has a big effect on what the round does. 223 lacks the energy necessary to provide guaranteed clean kills unless you are taking a head or neck shot (my opinion).

My 2 main hunting rounds are a 150gr Nosler BT in my 308 and a 165gr BTSP in my 308 (not 30-06). Which round is in the chamber depends on where I'm hunting at the time. That Nosler, has NEVER lost a deer and neither has the BTSP when they left my barrel. Do they both do massive damage, yes. Are they both proven designs, yes. Is it possible to only wound a deer with them, yes any idiot with a gun can take a bad shot. So what if they exit, that means they are doing their job with energy to spare, but I do recover about 50% of the Noslers from the opposing shoulder depending on the shot angle and range.

Both of those rounds are designed for rapid, controlled expansion. The DRT basically explodes. That's the major difference there. Once the DRT fragments it loses energy almost instantly, hence no exit wound. Sorry, a hunting bullet that fragments is IMO a flawed design no matter what caliber it is. It relies on the "shrapnel" from the core to take out the vitals. I'd rather put a bullet through them carrying a massive wound channel from shoulder to shoulder, just like the bullet was designed to do. At long range, both of those bullets will still carry enough energy and velocity to do exactly the same job they will do at 50 yards.

If you trust that round, good for you. When that buck of a lifetime walks out 200+ yards away and refuses to come any closer, that 223 doesn't seem quite as adequate does it? I'll keep my 308 and wax the arse on anything that walks out inside 600 yards with my "wrong bullets at the wrong velocities", and yes, they will drop like a wet rag.

When it comes to killing something, overkill is a matter of opinion. Inadequate is a heart breaker. I'd much rather lose a couple pounds of bloodshot meat than watch a wounded animal run off because the bullet didn't perform as intended. I'm not bashing you for using that round, just saying it isn't the be all end all round for deer.

Edit to add: Those bullets do seem adequate for 'yotes though.
And I still want to see that study that shows (your words, not mine)


I've been reading reviews for the DRT 60gr (what few I could find from experienced reviewers) and I found one that was quite interesting. The writer shot 10 deer personally on a cull hunt on property owned by the owner of DRT. Nowhere did he claim to experience 100% shot/drop in its tracks lethality. Some of the deer ran as far as 70 yards before expiring from massive blood loss. Overall there were 20 deer taken on that hunt with 3 requiring follow-up shots. 15% of the deer needed to be shot again to dispatch them. What he didn't mention was how many of those 20 were taken with head or neck shots.

Like I said before, it may be the best bullet for boiler room shots on a deer for 223. It may not be, it's too new for that to be thrown out there. But to say it's they best bullet for deer period is utterly ridiculous.
[/quote]

The DRT 223 60gr bullet is the perfect bullet out to 300 yards. If the deer of a life time was 200 yards out would be no problem, even out to 300 yards. If you anticipate shooting a deer beyond 300 yards, which here in Michigan wont ever happen, then DRT makes the 79gr bullet that will easily reach out to 600 yards and make the deer drop. The 60gr work perfect for Michigan deer under 300 yards. Now there is no shrapnel as you call if from the DRT after it enters two inches of bone. It's filled with a fine powder much like baby powder but is actually tin & copper dust, not shrapnel. When this dust opens up, it really opens up. All the deer we shot on my property just dropped. Didnt matter if it was a boiler room shot, neck shot, or quartering shot. (They all just dropped) If your deer are smaller than Michigan deer how much faster do you think those deer will drop using 60gr DRT Ammo? Nothing against a 308, I love a 308, it happens to be my second favorite caliber. I am just festinated with 60gr DRT because there is zero wasted meet. All the explosion happens inside the deer using a fine powder. It's amazing. I'm sure the 308 will still kill the deer and so will a 30-30, or 30-06. I am just trying to share my personal experience in this group that I have never seen a deer just fold with any other bullet like they do with the 60gr DRT. The 79gr DRT will do the very exact same but is made for shots beyond 300 yards. My brother uses a 308 and his deer usually jump after being shot and run at least 50 yards and sometimes up to 200 yards with boiler room shots. I've never experienced that with the DRT. They just seem to drop. And yes, I would still use the 60gr DRT bullet in a 223 round for the deer of a life time as long as it was this side of 300 yards. Now if I was going out west I would probably use the 79gr DRT bullet because the deer could be out to 800 yards which personally I would not even attempt to shoot at that distance. I use the EOTech 552.A65 Holographic sighting system on my AR-15, not a scope. The farthest shot I've ever shot a deer was 150 yards and that has happened twice now. Both just dropped. My son said his deer was about 50 yards away and it also just dropped. We have never seen any bullet do what the DRT does to a deer. Thats why I keep talking about it. Until you see it actually happen it's hard to imagine. It's even more amazing when you clean out the deer and see what the bullet actually did inside of the animal. No 308 or 30-06 can do this kind of internal damage. I know my Mathews compound bow kills them too, but there is no internal devastation like the DRT. Since my deer just drop using the 60gr DRT, I no longer use my 30-30, 308, 7mm, 30-06, or mini 30 with the 762x39 bullet. All of these calibers will indeed kill the deer even with less than perfect shots. I just have never seen deer fold time after time like they do with the 60gr DRT bullet. (Thats all I am saying) and believe me, I'm not even a good shooter and never have I had a head or neck shot deer, I'm just not that good. All my shots seem to be in the center. Sometimes high, low, from quartering away, quartering forward etc. If i see a deer I just take the shot regardless of its position and they all just drop. None of them run at all. I've never experienced this before with any of my other rifles. And it may not be the best bullet for deer, but it does drop em and that is for sure. I'm no longer satisfied with just getting a good shot on a deer like I used to be with my other rifles, I've become addicted to seeing them just drop. Once you see a deer just fold and drop, you just want to do it over and over again. All my boys tell me the same thing. They just drop. I'm fortunate to own my own land with corn and clover fields. Here in Michigan they past a new law last year that a land owner can take as many deer as he wants even if its 500 deer. Last year we got a total of 12 deer. 11 were shot with the 60gr DRT and one was sot using the 223 60gr Blackhills soft core bullet. 11 deer just dropped and the one shot with the blackhills ran maybe 25 to 50 yards and collapsed. There is absolutely no doubt that the 223 kills deer and does it very well and so will the 308. But I've never seen a 308 make a deer fold like I've seen using the 60gr DRT from an AR-15 with a 1 in 9 inch twist. I use the Colt H barrel target model, my other boys use the AR-15 M-4 Bushmasters: Sure, dead is dead: But I just love to see them deer just fold. Incidentally, our family has owned this land for over 20 years and every year we get deer using all different kinds of rifles in different calibers. But since this last deer season we all decided to use our AR-15's in 223 caliber just for the fun of it. Heck, none of us really expected the 223 round to drop a deer, we figured we would be doing at least some tracking. But as it turned out they all just folded and we didn't have to track any of them. Will I ever go back to using the other rifles after seeing what the 223 with the 60gr DRT does to a deer? Probably not. I cant wait till next deer season to see them fold again. It's become an addiction to see a deer just drop straight down. Grandpa still uses his old 32 Winchester special and we always have to follow a blood trail to get his deer for him. The DRT is not like a V-max fragmenting bullet which throws out shrapnel. The DRT just simply throws out dust powder. (Much like baby powder) all i can say is it works really well for me and my 4 boys. The DRT sure makes really good camp fire discussions too. Every deer hunter wants to get a deer and every deer hunter hates tracking them looking for little blood spots here and there and every deer hunter has lost at least one deer if not dozens of deer, including me. But this past gun season was the very first season I had ever seen deer just fold. I don't know any other way of explaining this. And they all folded using a simple 223 round DRT 60gr bullet with the exception of the one deer taken using the 223 Blackhills 60gr soft core. We didn't loose any deer this past season. I think I'm going to get grandpa a 223 caliber gun next year. Not the AR-15 but maybe the Ruger mini 14 Ranch Rifle. DRT says the 60gr is excellent out to 300 yards beyond that they recommend the 79gr in the 223 caliber. The farthest deer I've shot with the 223 60gr was 150 yards and it did the same as all the others. It just folded. Thats about all I can say about the 223 caliber and the DRT bullet the rest is up to you. DRT makes the bullet in other calibers including the 308, not just the 223. If you decide to try the DRT in your 308 next year, I cant wait to read what you have to say. I'm willing to bet you will be just like me.


#37 OFFLINE   Griffon

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Posted Mar. 08 2011 - 03:08 PM

Geez fellas, its like reading the transcript from a political debate. Your not going to change any minds here on a basis of technology vs ethics. We all have our opinions and lets leave it at that. I personally hunt deer with a .223 using the DRT bullet, and I'm very happy with the round and its capabilities. But, this dissagreement sounds largly ethical in nature, and if thats the answer the OP wants to the question then he is the only one with the answer. I know a lot of people who think I'm looney for using a .223 and thats fine with me. They can have their opinion all they want, I'm the one squeezing the trigger and taking the responsibility for the round that goes down range. I've seen my fair share of deer run off from a 7mm mag hit to the rib cage, so just because its a big round doesnt mean its a clean kill until the animal is in the truck. I dont have a problem with hunting deer, white tails or mule deer for that matter, with a .223. To the OP, its your decision, and you have to be the one to make it. As for a bullet choice, I use 60gr DRT out of the box, it works for me just fine for me.


#38 OFFLINE   Griffon

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Posted Mar. 08 2011 - 03:17 PM

I've been reading reviews for the DRT 60gr (what few I could find from experienced reviewers) and I found one that was quite interesting. The writer shot 10 deer personally on a cull hunt on property owned by the owner of DRT. Nowhere did he claim to experience 100% shot/drop in its tracks lethality. Some of the deer ran as far as 70 yards before expiring from massive blood loss. Overall there were 20 deer taken on that hunt with 3 requiring follow-up shots. 15% of the deer needed to be shot again to dispatch them. What he didn't mention was how many of those 20 were taken with head or neck shots.


You can also ask the question, of the deer taken how many of those 3 that required more attention were hit out of the kill zone? Its hard to make any conclusive determinations based on data like that.


#39 OFFLINE   RamBowMike

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Posted Mar. 08 2011 - 03:43 PM

You are so correct, and I want to thank you for the summary: There is just something about that 223 60gr DRT bullet that just simply drops deer. They actually fold and collapse right where you shoot em.
Now there will always be people that believe there must be an exit would for faster bleeding. But thats not the DRT design of quick kills. It's the internal explosion that kills the deer so quickly, not the hole that goes through the deer.
Maybe we shouldn't be telling others about this DRT ammo. We should probably just keep it a secret. But you and I both know that there is no tracking involved with the 223 60gr DRT bullet unlike many of the big bores that OP seem to believe is necessary to kill a 150 pound deer. Thats like shooting a 150 pound woman. In the old days people used to use 22 rim fires to get there deer and many in the southern states still use the 22 rim fire or 22 magnum to get there deer.
The 223 is a 50 caliber in comparison to the above.
Most importantly its not so much the caliber but rather the type of bullet that is used. Now I love the 60gr DRT and I also love the 60gr Blackhills soft cores. They both will take down any north american animal especially a 150 to 200 pound whitetail deer.
In truth, if my 30-30, or even 308 would drop deer like my 223 AR-15 using the 60-gr DRT ammo I would be using them. (But they don't)
It is in my honest opinion that nothing has dropped a deer faster than the DRT bullet. (Period)
I've seen so many deer shot from my deer stands it would boggle your mind. The majority of them run at least 100 yards before falling. And if you start tracking them right away they just get up again and run another 100 or so yards. Even with the 308 caliber rifles. Sure, sometimes the heavy guns will drop the deer within 10feet of where it was shot. But I have never seen a bullet consistently fold (Collapse) deer like the 223 60gr DRT bullet.
Many will still say its not enough gun for whitetail deer hunting. It's not just the rifle guys, its the type of ammo that is being used.
I believe I have said enough about this subject and would love to hear other peoples opinions too. This is one of the better topics on all the forums. Until a person sees it, or uses the DRT ammo they just simply will never understand. The 223 60gr DRT will drop a deer in its tracks at 300 yards without any problem.
I spoke to dustin Worrell (Owner of DRT) on the phone last week and he also emailed me telling me that some people will just never understand that the DRT is not a regular fragmenting bullet, It is the latest in explosive technology that cannot fragment unless it hits a liquid. This is why it goes through bone so easily, and as soon as it touches the liquid in the cavity or neck or where ever there is a liquid, the bullet releases the powder at such high velocity that it's like an M-80 exploding inside the deer. It would do no good to have a pass through type bullet if you have the opportunity to use this type of technology. It is a bone crusher with explosion from 12 to 14 inches after a minimum of a 2 inch entry. Two inches into a whitetail deer and then an explosion is going to make the deer fold. I say fold, because thats what they actually do. They just fold as if they just had a heart attach or something. They cant even take one step forward, backward, sideways or anything else. They just simply fold.
However, thank you for your input on this subject.


#40 OFFLINE   redbarron06

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Posted Mar. 08 2011 - 04:13 PM

The DRT 223 60gr bullet is the perfect bullet out to 300 yards.


That is one hell of a claim, with no scientific evidense to back it up. I will go out on a limb and say :bs:


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