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S&W CS40 to 10mm conversion?


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#1 OFFLINE   jeepmor

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Posted Apr. 18 2007 - 04:15 AM

This should be in conversion area, sorry, MODS please move if needed.

I thought I posted this somewhere yesterday, but I can't find it so I'll chime in again. If it's redundant, MODS please delete.

I'm wondering if this is possible with a S&W Chiefs Special .40caliber.

1. will 10mm round fit in magazine ----if not, well, that's a showstopper.
2. If 1 works and the slide has enough range of motion, is the ejection port big enough? Could it be worked over to function properly?
3. Reaming a chamber can't be that tough being it's simply a deeper bore with maybe some slight differences in SAAMI accepted dimensions.

I posted something like this in THR regarding using a CZ RAMI 40 and I got blasted by the naysayers. It's too small, it'll hurt your hand, it's overkill, you don't need that much...blah, blah, blah ad nauseum. I don't care about the recoil, I know it'll be vigorous. I've shot my neighbors 40cal Kahr PM40 and it wasn't near the recoil I expected. If they can make 357

I'm not saying I'd do it, but tinkering with the idea keeps me off the streets at night. :whistling: And as a 10mm fan, it's just fun to think about. I mean really, the G29 shouldn't be the only subcompact 10mm out there IMO. If they can make 357 J frames, we can have a 10mm in a subcompact format is my thinking.

Edited by jeepmor, Apr. 18 2007 - 05:33 AM.



#2 OFFLINE   freakshow10mm

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Posted Apr. 18 2007 - 09:15 AM

1] Take a 10mm round and find a CS40 in a gun shop ASK if you can try the round in the magazine.

2] The slide will have enough range of motion (the 45 Auto (CS45) has the same OAL as the 10mm). Opening the ejection port is quite easy. File or dremel.

3] Reaming the chamber is just a depth issue. All external case dimensions are the same. The 40S&W is a 10mm cut down 1/8" and fitted with a SP primer. That is it. Hunter Customs will ream the chamber for less than $70.


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#3 OFFLINE   freakshow10mm

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Posted Apr. 18 2007 - 09:16 AM

oops, double tap.

Edited by freakshow10mm, Apr. 18 2007 - 09:17 AM.



#4 OFFLINE   The_Shadow

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Posted Apr. 26 2007 - 12:28 PM

The main thing of concern to me is that the 40S&W is only 35,000psi max and 10mm is rated to 37,500psi max.

Secondly the chamber of the 40S&W is slightly shorter, so now you would have to have the chamber cut deeper to 10mm specifications and that barrel could only be used for 10mm cartridges. This is providing that the shorter action of the 40 caliber gun can extract the longer rounds of 10mm.

My suggestion is to convert an already 10mm gun with the longer action and most of all strength to handle 10mm loadings with a conversion barrel chambered for 40S&W only. Some companies do offer this type of conversions.

Bar-Sto offered a (semi drop-in) conversion barrel for the Smith and Wesson 1006 10mm to 40S&W, I believe they quit this process as off the shelf but may still make them special order. These (semi drop-in) conversion barrels still needed to be fitted to the individual gun.

Have fun, good luck but be very safe! :thumbsup:


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#5 OFFLINE   The_Shadow

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Posted Apr. 26 2007 - 12:32 PM

1] Take a 10mm round and find a CS40 in a gun shop ASK if you can try the round in the magazine.

2] The slide will have enough range of motion (the 45 Auto (CS45) has the same OAL as the 10mm). Opening the ejection port is quite easy. File or dremel.

3] Reaming the chamber is just a depth issue. All external case dimensions are the same. The 40S&W is a 10mm cut down 1/8" and fitted with a SP primer. That is it. Hunter Customs will ream the chamber for less than $70.



The differences in case dimensions are the extractor grooves which are larger for the 40S&W than the 10mm. :sad:

Edited by The_Shadow, Apr. 26 2007 - 12:32 PM.



#6 OFFLINE   jeepmor

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Posted Apr. 29 2007 - 10:05 PM

I purchased a CS40 and acquired it yesterday. On the good news front regarding the conversion, they did make this model compact in a 45ACP, which means there "should" be room available to make a 10mm function if there is a lot of commonality between the two pistols. I suspect there is definitely some commonality simply because economics of manufacturing the two models side by side on a production line would make sense.

On the positive side. The magazine won't hold a 10mm round, but there is a piece of stainless sheet metal bent and placed inside the magazine to make it smaller to fit the 40 round. I suspect that removing this will allow a 10mm cartridge to fit inside. It appears that this magazine is a modified version of their CS45 magazine, but I'm not sure. There's this metal spacer in the magazine at the primer end of the cartridge and a couple of crimps at the feed lips that appear to be what was done to size it down to the 40 round from the 45. So, in this light, there is hope.

I'm not ready to go right after this and start tearing this gun apart to make it a 10mm just yet, but a few properly placed 1/8" holes through 8 spot welds would free this extra spacer from the magazine. It appears it will require a 45 follower and bottom spring retainer to properly fit in the magazine itself to account for this extra length. So the question is, buy a 45 mag and tweak the feed lips like the 40 magazine, or buy both a 40 and 45 magazine, extract the spacer from the 40 magazine and populate with follower and bottom retainer from a 45 magazine. That does not make for a cheap magazine, but it does at least look realistic at this point.

The ejection port appears to be big enough for the 10mm round also. But that's just a guestimate at this point. I'm suspecting the CS40 and CS45 have the same slide dimensions with the exception of the breech face width due to the difference between the 40 and 45. But that's just me thinking of minimal differences in a manufacturing line, not that I've had a CS40 and CS45 to compare side by side just yet. The extractor groove difference mentioned might be an issue also.

The extra 2500 psi does not immediately concern me since the chamber area appears to have plenty of meat around it. I suspect the 45 and the 40 in this model share the same barrel blanks before the barrel hole is bored. However, the large difference in operating pressure between the 45 and 40 is nothing to ignore. I'm just saying there's about an 1/8" of wall thickness on this barrel, even more in the chamber area. Being an engineering type, I know there are considerable safety factors for parts that operate as pressure vessels. Chambers are supposed to be designed to handle proof loads, which are typically 2x operating pressure, so that is why my concern is not overwhelming in this regard at this point in time.

In short, it looks very viable. Now I just have to decide if it is something I actually want to take on and if I'm willing to do it. This will be largely determined by whether or not I can get another barrel. Like another poster stated, having both options would be nice, but going down to a 40 from a 10mm would be preferred in regards to design strength, and this conversion is definitely moving the other direction in this regard. But the 45 model in the same platform is promising since the 45 does offer a higher energy level and should be designed as such. (ft-lbs are ft-lbs if you've ever done any mechanical engineering homework)

It's still a dream as of now, but looks like a realistic dream. However, I'm definitely gonna put some 40s down the pipe before I go tweaking on a pistol that appears to only have had 100 or less rounds through so far. i got a smoking good deal on this pistol and don't want to take the chance on making it a 10mm until it has delivered me many days at the range.

I'm in no hurry, slow and steady, but moving forward is my motto. Obviously, I don't run a business. ;)

Edited by jeepmor, Jun. 16 2007 - 01:34 AM.



#7 OFFLINE   The_Shadow

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Posted May. 02 2007 - 05:34 PM

If you get a magazine to fit the 10mm rounds in then try to find another barrel to have its chamber bored to 10mm casing dimensions including the tapering of forcing area.

This is providing the action has enough travel to cylcle the longer 10mm round.

Good luck and let us know how you make out.

Be safe! :thumbsup:


#8 OFFLINE   smith10

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Posted May. 02 2007 - 07:29 PM

Another thought on magazines I had was to adapt a 1006 mag by shortening. I have been thinking of doing the same thing to a 4014 or 4013 as the older versions were single stacks built on 4513 frames.


#9 OFFLINE   jeepmor

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Posted May. 16 2007 - 01:56 AM

I still have not made it out to the range with this gun yet. Looking at the scandium frame, I'm not sure it would stand up the the beating of the 10mm round. Plus, I'd have to find a stouter recoil spring also if all the stars aligned and this can actually work.

jeepmor


#10 OFFLINE   jeepmor

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Posted Jun. 16 2007 - 01:43 AM

Been to the range, runs real good. Flawless thus far with remington FMJ. RNFP looking thing. I'm in no hurry as I like the 40 round for now and just paid for a holster from UBG, should be here next week.

No 10mm conversion for this pistol. The scandium frame won't last according to some other alloy framed conversions I've read about that eventually ruined the rails. Oh well, now I have a 40.

Anyone know of some aftermarket grips for these things. I'm coming up blank and will likely have to try to make some on my own or hit up one of the custom gurus like Hakan. That hogue rubber grip is great, but the feel during CCW is a bit sticky.

Just what I need, another project. At least this is a fun one.

jeepmor

Edited by jeepmor, Jun. 25 2007 - 09:35 PM.



#11 OFFLINE   Bad_Man_One

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Posted Jun. 15 2011 - 12:09 PM

Reviving an old thread here.

4013, 4014, 4053 and 4054 single stacks to 10 m.m.

YES, IT'S BEEN DONE !

http://smith-wessonf...457-10-m-m.html

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BM1
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#12 OFFLINE   Bad_Man_One

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Posted Jun. 26 2011 - 05:34 PM

Here is the latest information on the CS-40 to 10 m.m. conversion.
I found some new heavy duty flat wire springs.

http://smith-wessonf...l#post136010563

Regards,
BM1


#13 OFFLINE   The_Shadow

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Posted Jun. 29 2011 - 07:28 PM

Well Bad_Man_One is doing it...Rough machining the S&W 10xx series conversion barrels...See post #120

http://smith-wessonf...barrels-12.html

Looking great already!


#14 OFFLINE   Bad_Man_One

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Posted Jul. 10 2011 - 08:30 AM

Here is the latest, picked up a second CS-40 yesterday to do some testing.
CNC re-bored the chamber to ANSI/SAAMI Spec for 10 m.m.
Removed the spacer in the aft of the magazine, what a bear that was.
Added a white 10 m.m. follower and a Buffer Technologies buffer, had to shave it a little to allow lock back on empty mag.
Cut down the two samples of the test springs I received last week.
Made an extended magazine with a Pro-Mag adapter from an 8 rd. 4506 mag, had to "tweak" the feed lips and modify the follower.

I will be switching out the single sided safety to an ambidextrous safety/decocker with my other CS-40,
I need it to get a grip on both sides to rack this "Pocket Rocket"

Will try to get to the range next week.
I will keep you informed, or you can follow here:
http://smith-wessonf...-magazines.html

Regards,
BM1
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#15 OFFLINE   Bad_Man_One

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Posted Jul. 10 2011 - 05:40 PM

Well,
I had an incredible range day today.
All I can say is SWEEEEEEET!

Took the "CS-10" and and "1013" to my LGS, they have a 7 port - 75 foot indoor range.
A good friend of mine works there.
I was surprised to see the range was empty on a Sunday.
Grabbed a box of 10 m.m. Federal 135 gr. BallistiClean Copper Bonded Flat Point ammo off of the shelf
and also had a 100 rd. box of my reloaded 180 gr. ammo with me and put it all through both firearms.

Also put the ambidextrous safety on it that I swapped from my CS-45, it makes racking the slide easier on your fingers.
I started off with the heaviest spring that I had made to fit.

The CS-40/10 recoil was quite comfortable with the Hogue grips and the thinned down Buffer Technologies buffer in it.

First shot was with just one round chambered with an empty magazine to see if it would lock back, it did and did not throw the brass all that far.
Everything cycled perfectly and the accuracy was as good as the 4013/1013 at 50 ft., I'm very happy/pleased.

This target is the first target of the 4013/1013 taken mid-May just to show those that have not seen it.
Today's were the same, the CS-10 printed about 1.50" low at 50 ft.
Just the opposite of the target shown.
I expected that being a substantially hotter round.
I don't have the targets from today, I forgot them at the range, sorry.

Now to go work on a Delrin grips to replace the Hogue's.................

Regards,
BM1
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#16 OFFLINE   Bad_Man_One

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Posted Jul. 10 2011 - 07:58 PM

So, I forgot to mention,
today I get out of the range and I'm standing at the counter and I get to talking to a well known to the store, "die-hard" Delta Elite guy.
He asks "What were you shooting in there?"[the range]
I tell him a 10 m.m. S&W.
He seemed like he had a little attitude or wanted to say something, I don't know.
He says to me "Oh, those big tanks, What did I do with it, where did it go?"
So I tell him I'm carrying it.
You should have seen the look on his face when I showed him this rig under a white T-shirt,
that was the end of my side of the conversation:
Regards,
BM1
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