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Pros & Cons of 9x23 vs. .38Super???


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#1 OFFLINE   Airsupport

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Posted Jun. 21 2007 - 05:37 AM

I've heard that the 9x23 is a "new & improved" .38Super. I've never seen 9x23 in ammo stores. It's hard enough to find .38Super.

So, why choose 9x23 over .38Super? Is it that much better? I've never even seen a gun chambered in 9x23. At least a major gun maker or model that I like for that matter.

Lastly, what's the cost of factory loaded 9x23? I don't have time to reload.

Any thoughts on the two chamberings?

Thanks.


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#2 OFFLINE   Agent19

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Posted Jun. 21 2007 - 08:22 AM

More HorsePower/less pressure!!! Colt made a Series 80 in 9x23, some models came with a extra barrel/mag in 38super. Any gun chambered for super can have a barrel fitted for 9x23. I even heard of people rechambering guns in 9x19(nato)to 9x23. Fiocchi, Winchester (practice and Silvertips) and Corbon make ammo. CCI and european companys make 9mm largo(9x21)that can also be shoot in 9x23 guns.


The Super was created to replace the older/less powerful 38acp. 38acp can be fired in Supers.
However "DON'T" fire the 38super in guns chambered for 38acp as they can't handle the pressure.

I bought 2 Colt Series 80's for $450 each from CDNN as a closeout over 15yrs ago, one to collect and the other as a shooter, I had a 9x19 barrel fitted to the shooter and use it all the time.

Used and LNIB guns can be found on Gunbroker, the ammo runs around $25 for 50rds and can easily be found.

Edited by Agent19, Jun. 23 2007 - 08:31 AM.



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#3 OFFLINE   gunfan

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Posted Jun. 22 2007 - 02:49 PM

I prefer the 9 x 23 for the reason that modern technology has superseded that of 1929 (the year the .38 Super was introduced.) IMHO, the 9 X 23 is "just what the doctor ordered" for a full-sized autopistol (read .45 ACP-framed) should use to duplicate the .357 S&W Magnum within velocity/bullet weight perameters.

The .357 Sig does this handily, but only with the loads produced by Double Tap! (kudos to you, Mike!) Outside of this loading, the .357 Sig falls somewhat short of what is needed to eclipse the mighty .357 Magnum.

If I had my way, the 9 X 23 would be riding in the holsters of most law enforcement officers, if they weren't carrying either the 10mm auto or the .45 ACP.

In my opinion, these are the proprietary "man-stopping" calibers.

Scott


#4 OFFLINE   pinot_guy

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Posted Jun. 23 2007 - 11:34 AM

I had a Commander made up in 9x23 Win. I absolutely love it and after some initial regret over the ammo availability situation, I sucked it up and now order it on-line. The round was originally conceived for use in competitions (e.g. IPSC) to make Major, but I am a firm believer that it makes a tremendous SD/CCW round. Factory loadings are pushing a 125-gr. HP at around 1450 FPS/575 ft. lbs. To me, that's real impressive any way you cut it.

It is similar dimensionally to .38 Super and 9mm Largo. In fact, I've heard numerous accounts of people shooting .38 S in 9x23 pistols. I've not tried this myself and don't think I ever will. The .38 S is semi-rimmed while the Win. is truly rimless. The Largo is identical as far as exterior dimensions are concerned. The Win. has a lot thicker web area and generates a LOT more pressure. A19 is correct in that you could shoot Largo in Win. chambered guns but the reverse is not advisable.

It's a "fringe" round and probably always will be. I hope DT will start making some 9x23 loads.


#5 OFFLINE   Sonny Crockit

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Posted Jun. 23 2007 - 06:56 PM

I had a Commander made up in 9x23 Win. I absolutely love it and after some initial regret over the ammo availability situation, I sucked it up and now order it on-line. The round was originally conceived for use in competitions (e.g. IPSC) to make Major, but I am a firm believer that it makes a tremendous SD/CCW round. Factory loadings are pushing a 125-gr. HP at around 1450 FPS/575 ft. lbs. To me, that's real impressive any way you cut it.

It is similar dimensionally to .38 Super and 9mm Largo. In fact, I've heard numerous accounts of people shooting .38 S in 9x23 pistols. I've not tried this myself and don't think I ever will. The .38 S is semi-rimmed while the Win. is truly rimless. The Largo is identical as far as exterior dimensions are concerned. The Win. has a lot thicker web area and generates a LOT more pressure. A19 is correct in that you could shoot Largo in Win. chambered guns but the reverse is not advisable.

It's a "fringe" round and probably always will be. I hope DT will start making some 9x23 loads.


The 9x23 is a good round but what gets me is that Winchester stop makeing the powder that really makes it as good as it is, that would be WAP. The numbers that you refered to is based on from a 5 inch bbl, you wont reach those figures from a Combat Commander. I dont think it ever replaced the 38 Super in the matches, as was the plan. And Colt didnt make the Gov Mod very long it the cal. I wont change my Combat Commander from 38 Super to 9x23 :no:


#6 OFFLINE   gunfan

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Posted Jul. 06 2007 - 08:26 PM

Sonny: I am certain that the 9 X 23 would benefit from the judicious use of Accurate Arms #7. It seems to be slow enough to build ample pressure for the lighter bullets (read: 125 grain .355 inch.) I hope that Mike has the foresight to fill the void left by Winchester!

Scott


#7 OFFLINE   Agent19

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Posted Jul. 20 2007 - 10:42 AM

Caliber vs Caliber
People argue about calibers all day but no one seems to think that the 125 gr @ 1450 fps/584lbs in a 4" 357 mag is a wimp load this is the most common load used for defense.

However the .357 mag can and is loaded by DoubleTap to 1600fps/710lbs with a JHP125gr fired from a 4" revolver.

The 9x23 in a 5" 1911 can duplicate both loadings, the later being a handload, with the 125gr at 1450fps/584lbs being the most common(WSTJHP))and you get 11 or more rounds and is more controllable than a .357 mag revolver.

The 38 Super's commerical loadings can't match either.

ANY 9mm/38 super gun can be converted to 9x23 with a barrel/recoil spring swap.

** The fastest commerical loads I could find in each caliber***:

The 9mm 115gr+P @ 1395fps/495lbs, loaded by DT

The 9mm 124gr @ 1295fps/462lbs, loaded by DT

The 40SW 135gr @ 1375fps/567lbs, loaded by DT

The 155gr @ 1275fps/560lbs, loaded by DT

The 45acp with a 165gr @ 1325fps/643lbs fired from a 5" 1911, loaded by DT

A 45acp with a 185gr @1225fps/616lbs(commercial loading) fired from a 5" 1911, loaded by DT

The best .357sig load a "125gr @ 1525fps/645lbs fired from a 4.5 barrel" BARELY surpasses the 45acp with a 165gr both loaded by DT

.357sig ammo is harder too find and more expensive at least from other ammo makers and the 4.5" bbl gun ISN"T the one most likely to be carried.

I know why the 38super is around by why is the 357sig.

For defense purposes most people will carry this caliber in a 3.5 or 4"bbl.

A 4"bbl with this same load produces 1450fps/584lbs thats just a few fps faster than a 40SW with a 4" barrel and slower than the fastest 45acp loads and the 45acp has GREATER sectional density.

NOW we get to the King of ENERGY from common sized auto loading pistol.

The 10mm !!!
A 135gr @ 1600fps/767lbs from a 4.6"bbl or a 155gr @ 1475fps/750lbs both loaded by DT.

The 10mm and 9x23 should rule the defensive auto pistol world much like the 357mag is KING of the Revolvers in this catagory.

DT should offer 9x23 barrels for 1911, G17, G17L and 9x23 ammo loaded to the same specs as their fastest 357mag load.

Ruger should offer a SP101 3" boobed hammer/GP100 5" in 9x23 because it will except 9mm, 38super, 9x21 ammo much like the 357mag/38spl.

Glock and Springfeild should offer their Tactical Models in 9x23.

Taurus already makes a gun in 38 Super why not make a 9x23 barrel as well.

CZ/Wesson could/SHOULD offer a 1911 and a Revolver(pistol pack 8,5,3") in 9x23 and broaden their defensive pistol line up.

ARE ANY OF YOU GUN MAKERS LISTENING!!!!

For those with a Sig P200/Browning BDA in 38 Super you could always have it converted to 9x23 I did several yrs ago.

Edited by Agent19, Jul. 20 2007 - 10:56 AM.



#8 OFFLINE   gunfan

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Posted Jul. 20 2007 - 09:32 PM

"Ruger should offer a SP101 3" boobed hammer/GP100 5" in 9x23 because it will except 9mm, 38super, 9x21 ammo much like the 357mag/38spl." - Agent 19.

Ya gotta watch out for those 'boobed' hammers! LOL!

Just kiddin' Brother. Juuuuust kidding!

Scott

Edited by gunfan, Jul. 20 2007 - 09:33 PM.



#9 OFFLINE   Agent19

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Posted Jul. 21 2007 - 10:11 AM

oops!!!


#10 OFFLINE   Sonny Crockit

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Posted Aug. 15 2007 - 01:41 PM

Sonny: I am certain that the 9 X 23 would benefit from the judicious use of Accurate Arms #7. It seems to be slow enough to build ample pressure for the lighter bullets (read: 125 grain .355 inch.) I hope that Mike has the foresight to fill the void left by Winchester!

Scott

Well Scott you may very well be right about #7,but i havent see any data for the 9x23 in any of the manuals but from Winchester. Plus from looking at the burn rate chart WAP is alot faster burning the #7.WAP is just a tad bit slower the HS-6





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