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80% PCR receivers / build-it-yourself...proper forum?


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#1 OFFLINE   tippet

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Posted Nov. 09 2009 - 02:29 PM

howdy folks, I've been getting itnerested in the 80% receiver thing. I know that "other" black rifle forum is reputed to have a large amount of data on this pastime, but I'm hoping I don't need to go there. I have the idea that everything I need is right here, but in searching I keep getting error messages saying one or more search terms are less than 3 characters so no-go. Where should I look for info on PCR receivers, and to post a log of the progress of my project?


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#2 OFFLINE   bfausett84

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Posted Nov. 09 2009 - 02:53 PM

Well, I suppose posting your progress should go in the armorer thread. As for searching, there was a thread somewhere that talked about the blocks you need to properly finish a receiver, I believe they're made by DPMS. Someone will be along shortly to let you know, I'm sure ts, zeke, or nwatson will chime in.


#3 OFFLINE   tippet

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Posted Nov. 09 2009 - 04:28 PM

Oh, I didn't realize DPMS makes one. I am aware of several manufacturers.


#4 OFFLINE   bfausett84

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Posted Nov. 09 2009 - 05:10 PM

My bad, I believe this was the block they were talking about.


#5 OFFLINE   tippet

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Posted Nov. 09 2009 - 06:14 PM

Yes I think of the various options, the CNCGuns jig is the one to get. He also makes a jig for using a drill press to hog out the pockets.


#6 OFFLINE   Danrod

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Posted Nov. 09 2009 - 07:17 PM

If u need blanks check these out
http://www.tacticalmachining.com/
80 Percent for 80 Dollars

Edited by Danrod, Nov. 09 2009 - 07:17 PM.



#7 OFFLINE   tippet

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Posted Nov. 09 2009 - 08:13 PM

Thank you D I greatly appreciate that!


#8 OFFLINE   +Zeke+

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Posted Nov. 09 2009 - 08:19 PM

Here's some good links on 80% receivers.

http://www.cncguns.com/
http://www.ftfindustries.com/
http://www.tanneryshop.com/index.html
http://www.ar15plus.com/

All sell the tools, receivers, and/or parts kits.

You need some shop skills and shop tools too. Definitely a proper drill press and usually a mill. The skills to use those machines too.


Of note is that this will always be a personal hobby to you. You cannot make them for absolutely anyone, but you or your spouse. You cannot sell or give away these receivers EVER. You can give them to your kids....after you are dead. This will not let you make NFA weapons either. Get caught making a M16 lower and you'll do 25 years in Leavenworth.

Also, you would need to make a whole lot of them before you started saving any money. If you want 20+ AR's in your gun safe for personal use then this might be worth the investment financially.


If you have the tools, skills, and understand this hobby is only to make semi-auto toys for just yourself then have fun. :thumb:


[edit] Note this legal gun making only applies to federal law. Any state laws are still in effect and may preclude you from doing this depending on where you live.

Edited by +Zeke+, Nov. 09 2009 - 08:21 PM.



#9 OFFLINE   tippet

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Posted Nov. 09 2009 - 09:11 PM

Yes absolutely I appreciate the notes Z. I don't expect to save $$, I'm just quite taken with the idea of doing it myself. I'm funny that way.


#10 OFFLINE   +Zeke+

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Posted Nov. 09 2009 - 09:57 PM

Ok, just wanted to clear away any incorrect notions that some people have about this.

A hobby doesn't have to make complete logical sense as long is you enjoy it.

Have fun. :)


#11 OFFLINE   tippet

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Posted Nov. 09 2009 - 10:14 PM

Thank you. Actually the best price I can get for a ar15 stripped lower, locally anyway, after fees and taxes etc. comes to just about the same as most 80% PCR's. But at $80/unit through tactical machine, if I use my friends tools this might end up saving me a little $$. But either way the main thing is to do it myself.


#12 OFFLINE   +Zeke+

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Posted Nov. 09 2009 - 10:48 PM

.....if I use my friends tools this might end up saving me a little $$. But either way the main thing is to do it myself.


That's a pretty gray area. One company used to program their cnc machines and invite buyers to run the machines themselves at build-your-own bbq parties. BATF raided them and thew a lot of people in jail.

Maybe using the machines at his place could be legal but getting set up help clearly is not. He can't coach you through it or line up anything for you. Might not even be wise to have him in the room. You might end of as co-defendants in a federal court room if you do. I'm sure he could teach you general machining skills as long as a receiver never was in the machine, but once that blank goes in you had better be good enough to do it alone.


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Posted Nov. 09 2009 - 11:04 PM

ah, thanks again. I didn't realize it was a no-no to get help to merely set up the machine. I guess first I'd better get him to coach me through making a block of aluminum into paperweight covered with holes, pockets, and slots. Then I can do a receiver in the privacy of my own back-room shop.


#14 OFFLINE   tippet

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Posted Nov. 10 2009 - 03:13 AM

Hey wait a minute: a couple questions about the BATF on this...

Ok I understand they won't tolerate any monkey business regarding this arena. Any violation of the rules opens a guy up to serious seriousness. I get that. It's not even germaine to discuss how they might find out about any monkey business, a simple risk-reward analysis precludes that from anyone with half a brain.

So there's that.

But I'm reading about outfits who sell 80% PCR's becoming closely acquainted with BATF. Company after company in fact, with problems ranging from simply being temporarily shut down to being shut down, assets siezed, and put out of business. Sounds like BATF has no love for 80% PCR's.

So what kind of shatlist have I got myself put onto just for announcing my interest and asking for info? If what I hear is true, plenty of people have had plenty of trouble without actually having broken any laws.

I'm starting to get a bad taste in my mouth.


#15 OFFLINE   TigerStripe

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Posted Nov. 10 2009 - 11:50 AM

Hey wait a minute: a couple questions about the BATF on this...

Ok I understand they won't tolerate any monkey business regarding this arena. Any violation of the rules opens a guy up to serious seriousness. I get that. It's not even germaine to discuss how they might find out about any monkey business, a simple risk-reward analysis precludes that from anyone with half a brain.

So there's that.

But I'm reading about outfits who sell 80% PCR's becoming closely acquainted with BATF. Company after company in fact, with problems ranging from simply being temporarily shut down to being shut down, assets siezed, and put out of business. Sounds like BATF has no love for 80% PCR's.

So what kind of shatlist have I got myself put onto just for announcing my interest and asking for info? If what I hear is true, plenty of people have had plenty of trouble without actually having broken any laws.

I'm starting to get a bad taste in my mouth.


You were probably on it before the 80% thing crossed your mind. You're right that the ATF doesn't care for the 80% receivers.


TS


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#16 OFFLINE   tippet

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Posted Nov. 10 2009 - 11:51 AM

Well I guess I'm in good company

we must all be on it

Edited by tippet, Nov. 10 2009 - 11:52 AM.



#17 OFFLINE   Frac

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Posted Nov. 10 2009 - 12:19 PM

But I'm reading about outfits who sell 80% PCR's becoming closely acquainted with BATF. Company after company in fact, with problems ranging from simply being temporarily shut down to being shut down, assets siezed, and put out of business. Sounds like BATF has no love for 80% PCR's.


TM lists a copy of their approval letter from BATFE on their website. That's enough for me.


#18 OFFLINE   TomJefferson

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Posted Nov. 10 2009 - 12:30 PM

If I had to name one issue that people have had problems with the BATF over more than any other in my years on the internet, its this issue.

While we see it as a do it yourself, they see it at a minimum as trying to avoid registration and a maximum as intent to make a FA.

Where the 80% lowers use to be all over gun shows, they aren't now.

If there is one area even more than owning a FA that I would advise someone to make sure your butt is wired tight and you are so squeeky legal clean that if someone touches you that you squeak like freshly cleaned glass, this is it.

If I did this, I would not be surprised at all if the Men in Black show up at my door and ask me WTH I am doing and want to see it.

Sorry I don't want to rain on your parade but I've heard of way too many people having issues with this over the years especially back when this first became popular and the BATF declared unofficial war on it.

Yes, the BATF works closely with those now who sell the lowers. That's the point.

Tj


#19 OFFLINE   tippet

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Posted Nov. 10 2009 - 03:21 PM

Part of me wants to stand up fo rmy rights, after all there is a law that says I could do this right?

But another part of me (my puckered-up little browneye) wants to remain a backdoor virgin.


I realize there's no law that describes 80% PCR's in particular as a legal thing, and a piece of metal is just a piece of metal until it has been shaped into a receiver.

I haven't seen the law, I've just heard about it. Can anyone tell me, what is the nature and origin of this law that allows me to make a weapon?

BTW Yes I read that same letter and it comforts me. I'm just nervous because I keep hearing about examples of BATF behaving in unexpected ways.


#20 OFFLINE   TomJefferson

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Posted Nov. 10 2009 - 04:02 PM

Part of me wants to stand up fo rmy rights, after all there is a law that says I could do this right?

But another part of me (my puckered-up little browneye) wants to remain a backdoor virgin.


I realize there's no law that describes 80% PCR's in particular as a legal thing, and a piece of metal is just a piece of metal until it has been shaped into a receiver.

I haven't seen the law, I've just heard about it. Can anyone tell me, what is the nature and origin of this law that allows me to make a weapon?

BTW Yes I read that same letter and it comforts me. I'm just nervous because I keep hearing about examples of BATF behaving in unexpected ways.


I haven't heard of personally anyone getting into trouble for buying a 80% lower. The trouble was always associated to either secondary charges brought to their attention because of the lower or the entire intent thing.

Intent laws are, IMHO, unconstitutional but there they are. They by their design put the burden of proof on us. For example, more than one blank can be seen as intent to manufacture for resale even I just bought this press to do this can while even having a M16 bolt in another rifle can be seen as intent to make a FA,.

Remember they only need reasonable suspicion to charge you and standing on your rights gets real old very fast as your bank account drains empty and they know this.

Most of the folks I know personally who finish off 80% lowers are already in bed with the BATF. For example, they have a Class III and already use to the possibility they're going to show up at my door and have the right to see my stuff. I haven't known a one of these guys to get in any trouble. The ones in trouble all had things in common like not squeaky clean or took a non-cooperative stance at their door by standing on their rights. Of course, there were a few that could go either way had these parts or this many blanks type things.

When these, not so long ago either, things were sold openly cash and carry at gunshows etc., that's not only when the BATF cracked down on the practice but when most of the excesses happened. Its not been a hot topic on the boards since then but then a hell of a lot of guys changed their mind about doing it then too.

Of course, how much anyone's potential of being hassled over this is depends a lot of both your political climate as well as BATF's political climate.

The enforcement is and has been in this area if you can't outlaw it make it so difficult its not worth it.

That's why I say, I'd be super squeaky clean, totally not surprised the men in black show up at your door, and have a very cooperative manner.

Tj





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