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80 gr AMAX 223 Remington


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#1 OFFLINE   dakotadad

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Posted Apr. 03 2010 - 11:21 AM

Anyone have any load data they would like to share on this? It is for a 1:8 twist bull barrel. I can't find it in any of my manuals. I'm waiting on the bullets to arrive Monday from Midway. I saw one load in a Petersen's Rifle Shooter article that had 24.4 gr of Varget yielding 2752 fps but the COL was 2.230! (Data source; L. Simpson ??) Since the Hornady manual calls for 2.390 COL on 75 gr AMAX I am very suspicious of the 2.230 length shown in the article for the 80 AMAX. What could I expect if I dry loaded one without the primer and powder letting the chamber and bolt seat the bullet and then backed off a couple thousandths from what that measured for COL for the actual loading?

Hope to hear from some of you more experienced reloaders like TJ, GLShooter, KOH, TaosGlock, MontanaLon, ballistics04, and the list goes on...


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#2 OFFLINE   bob72

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Posted Apr. 03 2010 - 12:10 PM

Your Idea sounds good but I am too new at hand rolling to know! I will be reading this post also


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#3 OFFLINE   GLShooter

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Posted Apr. 03 2010 - 07:07 PM

Anyone have any load data they would like to share on this? It is for a 1:8 twist bull barrel. I can't find it in any of my manuals. I'm waiting on the bullets to arrive Monday from Midway. I saw one load in a Petersen's Rifle Shooter article that had 24.4 gr of Varget yielding 2752 fps but the COL was 2.230! (Data source; L. Simpson ??) Since the Hornady manual calls for 2.390 COL on 75 gr AMAX I am very suspicious of the 2.230 length shown in the article for the 80 AMAX. What could I expect if I dry loaded one without the primer and powder letting the chamber and bolt seat the bullet and then backed off a couple thousandths from what that measured for COL for the actual loading?

Hope to hear from some of you more experienced reloaders like TJ, GLShooter, KOH, TaosGlock, MontanaLon, ballistics04, and the list goes on...



Here is a deal from Shooting Times: 223 ST ARTICLE It mentions the 75 Grain AMAX form Hornady data at 2.390 and when Les Bair loaded it he went down to 2.273. Different powders different gun.

The only thing I recommend is to check the distances with a bullet.

Take a FIRED case from that rifle. Partially size the neck by backing off the die, about 1/2 the neck. You can check this buy coloring the neck with a magic marker and looking for the scrape. Take a jewelers saw or Dremel cut off wheel and cut the neck down about 1/2 way with 2 or 3 even spaced cuts from case mouth back. now push a bullet down into the neck. a bit. Take the round and insert in the chamber. Ease the bolt forward. DON'T DROP OR SLAM!! Pull the loaded round out and measure the OAL, Repeat X 3. Get the AVERAGE. This will be the MAX OAL touching the lands. Take this distance and load SHORTER. You may have a very long cartridge or you may not. Rifles vary. You have the idea in your post and are right on

Obviously if it is longer than 2.260 you will have to single feed them. DON'T PANIC!! :nt:
Now over and over again it has been found that even a HUGE jump to the lands from a magazine in an AR often will still result in stellar accuracy. I would be looking at a powder charge set up for the 75 grain bullets since they are more common and start from their in my powder levels.

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#4 OFFLINE   dakotadad

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Posted Apr. 06 2010 - 11:08 AM

Your Idea sounds good but I am too new at hand rolling to know! I will be reading this post also


I talked to Hornady today and was given the folowing info for the AMAX 80 gr 223:
C.O.L. is 2.390", same as the 75 gr and would be single loaded since it won't fit the mag.


H 4895 ---- START 18.5gr@2200----- MAX 22.3gr@2600
RL 15 -- --- START 19.5gr@2200------------------------- MAX 23.5@2650
WIN 748 -- START 20.2gr@2200----- MAX 23.6gr@2600
VARGET --- START 19.7gr@2200----- MAX 23.8gr@2600

Hope this is useful and interesting to someone besides me. :oh yea:

I'm still going to try GLShooter's recommendation for COL

Edited by dakotadad, Apr. 06 2010 - 11:09 AM.



#5 OFFLINE   ballistics04

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Posted Apr. 08 2010 - 05:37 AM

Anyone have any load data they would like to share on this? It is for a 1:8 twist bull barrel. I can't find it in any of my manuals. I'm waiting on the bullets to arrive Monday from Midway. I saw one load in a Petersen's Rifle Shooter article that had 24.4 gr of Varget yielding 2752 fps but the COL was 2.230! (Data source; L. Simpson ??) Since the Hornady manual calls for 2.390 COL on 75 gr AMAX I am very suspicious of the 2.230 length shown in the article for the 80 AMAX. What could I expect if I dry loaded one without the primer and powder letting the chamber and bolt seat the bullet and then backed off a couple thousandths from what that measured for COL for the actual loading?

Hope to hear from some of you more experienced reloaders like TJ, GLShooter, KOH, TaosGlock, MontanaLon, ballistics04, and the list goes on...


I loaded mine to 2.42" and they grouped 1.5" at 200 yards. That was a nice 5 shot group with 24.5gr Re-15. I have a 1:8 twist 20" barrel AR-15. Velocity was 2650 fps with no signs of high pressure. It looked like I had room for another grain of powder, which might bump the velocity up to 2750, but I don't know how it would group. I work up and down in half grain increments to get good groups. I haven't tried 25gr or 25.5gr yet. That will be in August or later this year.

If GLShooter's technique doesn't work for you, I suggest a Stoney Point OAL gauge. I use it to seat all of my single load rounds about .020 off the rifling.

Edited by ballistics04, Apr. 08 2010 - 11:01 AM.



#6 OFFLINE   bigjoeguns

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Posted Apr. 10 2010 - 08:48 PM

Please keep posting your results etc. I tried the 80g with varget and other powders, barrel is 1:7, couldn't get good results. Staying with 69g and 75g bullets.


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#7 OFFLINE   ballistics04

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Posted Apr. 11 2010 - 06:28 AM

Please keep posting your results etc. I tried the 80g with varget and other powders, barrel is 1:7, couldn't get good results. Staying with 69g and 75g bullets.


I've had great success with the 75gr BTHP, using 23.5gr H4895 and 24gr of Re-15 (not at the same time, LOL). Nothing to report on the 69's or 68's.

Todd


#8 OFFLINE   GLShooter

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Posted Apr. 11 2010 - 04:29 PM

I loaded mine to 2.42" and they grouped 1.5" at 200 yards. That was a nice 5 shot group with 24.5gr Re-15. I have a 1:8 twist 20" barrel AR-15. Velocity was 2650 fps with no signs of high pressure. It looked like I had room for another grain of powder, which might bump the velocity up to 2750, but I don't know how it would group. I work up and down in half grain increments to get good groups. I haven't tried 25gr or 25.5gr yet. That will be in August or later this year.

If GLShooter's technique doesn't work for you, I suggest a Stoney Point OAL gauge. I use it to seat all of my single load rounds about .020 off the rifling.



I use the Stoney Point also and make up my own custom cases for the set up. The cut necked approach is just a good way to get going if you don't have the need/desire to spend the money for the Stoney Point/Hornady set up.

Greg


#9 OFFLINE   dakotadad

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Posted Apr. 11 2010 - 05:12 PM

I loaded mine to 2.42" and they grouped 1.5" at 200 yards. That was a nice 5 shot group with 24.5gr Re-15. I have a 1:8 twist 20" barrel AR-15. Velocity was 2650 fps with no signs of high pressure. It looked like I had room for another grain of powder, which might bump the velocity up to 2750, but I don't know how it would group. I work up and down in half grain increments to get good groups. I haven't tried 25gr or 25.5gr yet. That will be in August or later this year.

If GLShooter's technique doesn't work for you, I suggest a Stoney Point OAL gauge. I use it to seat all of my single load rounds about .020 off the rifling.


Using GL's technique and double checking with a cleaning rod to the bolt face measurement minus the cleaning rod to the point of the bullet held against the rifling measurement, I get 2.540" both techniques. So if I back off .020" for the 80 gr AMAX setup, my C.O.L will be 2.520" for a single load cartridge. Does this seem too extreme to anyone? Bullet seat depth will be 0.426 into the brass. The overall length of the 80 gr AMAX bullet is 1.159".


#10 OFFLINE   GLShooter

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Posted Apr. 11 2010 - 05:35 PM

Using GL's technique and double checking with a cleaning rod to the bolt face measurement minus the cleaning rod to the point of the bullet held against the rifling measurement, I get 2.540" both techniques. So if I back off .020" for the 80 gr AMAX setup, my C.O.L will be 2.520" for a single load cartridge. Does this seem too extreme to anyone? Bullet seat depth will be 0.426 into the brass. The overall length of the 80 gr AMAX bullet is 1.159".



Aren't those long bullets pretty? That seems long but in my experience it is amazing how deep some AR chambers are cut. I know that I have NEVER reached one with a magazine length load. Do one last check and load up a dummy, paint the bullet with a magic marker (blue is a nice color) and inset it into the chamber. Look for engraving marks. If none are present then you have once again verified your COL.

Greg


#11 OFFLINE   bigjoeguns

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Posted Apr. 11 2010 - 08:57 PM

.426 almost a half inch. hmmmmmmmmm, crunchy sounds. I might have to try this and single load them one at a time. Great posts guys.

BjG


#12 OFFLINE   KillerMedic

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Posted Apr. 12 2010 - 03:42 PM

Seating them longer than magazine length and single loading them is how we use the long bullets in Highpower competition for 600y and further out. This allows more case capacity (or less capacity lost) from the long bullet and also get's the bullet ogive close to the start of the rifling, which is how these long bullets like to be shot.

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#13 OFFLINE   ballistics04

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Posted Apr. 12 2010 - 08:03 PM

Just like it's been said already, length depends on how deep your chamber is cut. My Rock River Arms chamber is what they call a "Wylde" chamber, which gives me another .020" after I seat my 80gr Amax out to 2.42" to the tip of the bullet. So seating it to 2.52 doesn't seem too extremely long. You're going to get some light crunching on the powder, but I doubt you'll get any high pressure signs. I never have, even in 100 degree temperatures.

Todd


#14 OFFLINE   dakotadad

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Posted Apr. 12 2010 - 09:21 PM

I hope to have some 80 gr range results by about the 23rd. I have some sick relatives I have to check in on in the mean time--including the wife who i had to take to the ER today with tightness in her chest and pain down left arm. They are keeping her overnight and it sounds like she is OK according to tests so far. Stress test in the AM should tell one way or the other.


#15 OFFLINE   bigjoeguns

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Posted Apr. 12 2010 - 09:29 PM

can someone answer this for me. How much difference in a barrel rated 223 vs one at 5.56 ? if built with a 5.56 and shooting 223 through it , would that be less accurate ?


#16 OFFLINE   ballistics04

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Posted Apr. 14 2010 - 03:22 PM

can someone answer this for me. How much difference in a barrel rated 223 vs one at 5.56 ? if built with a 5.56 and shooting 223 through it , would that be less accurate ?


No, it won't be less accurate.

From what I've read in numerous articles, .223 vs 5.56 has nothing to do with the barrel. It has a little to do with chamber dimensions... very little! In my experience with the Ruger Mini-14 since 1980, and with the M16/M4/AR15 rifles since 1986, I have seen NO difference in the way any of these rifles chamber, feed, shoot, or extract a mixture of 5.56 military loads and .223 civilian ammo. I'm sure you will find many of the same articles if you google .223 vs 5.56 or something to that effect.

Todd

Edited by ballistics04, Apr. 14 2010 - 03:23 PM.



#17 OFFLINE   facemelter

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Posted Apr. 15 2010 - 03:55 PM

can someone answer this for me. How much difference in a barrel rated 223 vs one at 5.56 ? if built with a 5.56 and shooting 223 through it , would that be less accurate ?


Ive done some reading on it.The only thing I can find on the two is the NATO pressure spec on the chamber is higher than say a WYLDE chamber or SAAMI chambered AR.SAAMI chambered AR's have less freebore and a shorter throat than a NATO chamber AR.WYLDE chamber is in between NATO and SAAMI.

They say because of the more freebore and longer throat on the 5.56 NATO chamber,it will be less accuraten when shooting .223, then shooting a 5.56 in a 5.56 NATO chambered AR.


#18 OFFLINE   ballistics04

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Posted Apr. 17 2010 - 04:44 PM

Ive done some reading on it.The only thing I can find on the two is the NATO pressure spec on the chamber is higher than say a WYLDE chamber or SAAMI chambered AR.SAAMI chambered AR's have less freebore and a shorter throat than a NATO chamber AR.WYLDE chamber is in between NATO and SAAMI.

They say because of the more freebore and longer throat on the 5.56 NATO chamber,it will be less accuraten when shooting .223, then shooting a 5.56 in a 5.56 NATO chambered AR.


I never could figure out why they make the throat longer on the 5.56 NATO chambers, because they only shoot magazine-length ammo, which means they don't need the jump that we need when loading longer 80gr bullets. Hmmm, just another gunsmithing mystery...


#19 OFFLINE   bigjoeguns

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Posted Apr. 17 2010 - 09:43 PM

They say because of the more freebore and longer throat on the 5.56 NATO chamber,it will be less accuraten when shooting .223, then shooting a 5.56 in a 5.56 NATO chambered AR.


This is exactly what I thought too. Some ammunition ads will state "only use in throated 5.56 barrels", and if I am correct one should not shoot 5.56 through a std. 223. Is that correct ?


#20 OFFLINE   ballistics04

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Posted Apr. 18 2010 - 04:34 PM

This is exactly what I thought too. Some ammunition ads will state "only use in throated 5.56 barrels", and if I am correct one should not shoot 5.56 through a std. 223. Is that correct ?


The military loads their ammo real hot compared to civilian ammo makers, which is why (I believe) they crimp the primers in place. I've seen that same advertisement about the Federal 80gr ammo from ammoman.com. I have shot 5.56 rounds through my Mini-14 without any problems, but I have never shot 5.56 through a bolt action .223 varmint rifle with the 1:12 or slower twist rates. Those varmint rifles might have shorter chambers, but I have absolutely no knowledge on them at all. The Mini-14 rifle is avertised as a .223 caliber rifle, but that doesn't mean it has the same chamber and throat dimensions as a bolt gun.





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