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Bringsteen

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    I love the 10mm

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  1. Bringsteen

    VERY interesting

    Do NOT use magnum primers with 800-X until you have lots of experience with that particular load using normal primers. You are trying to create a new load (at least "new" in the sense of having no load book to directly rely on). Magnum primers love to make cases loaded with 800-X rupture and make a mess in dangerous fashion.
  2. Bringsteen

    Hodgdon Lil'Gun Works in the 10mm!

    Here are some more data for Hodgdon Lil'Gun in the 10mm. For this set of tests, my protocol was essentially the same: new Starline brass, CCI 350 magnum primers, hand weigh each charge, et cetera. I tested some slightly different powder charges and used both standard and heavy crimps. I also fired a string through my Smith & Wesson 610. Some of the strings do not include 10 shots because I got some sunlight-related error readings. Hodgdon Lil'Gun, 17 grains, Standard Crimp 1) 1427.0 2) 1371.0 3) 1345.0 4) 1348.0 5) 1360.0 6) 1358.0 7) 1347.0 8) 1369.0 High: 1427.0 Low: 1345.0 E.S.: 82.0 Ave.: 1365.6 S.D.: 26.7 95%: ±23.9 Hodgdon Lil'Gun, 17 grains, Heavy Crimp 1) 1355.0 2) 1366.0 3) 1325.0 4) 1320.0 5) 1355.0 6) 1347.0 7) 1361.0 8) 1348.0 9) 1341.0 10) 1308.0 High: 1366.0 Low: 1308.0 E.S.: 58.0 Ave.: 1342.6 S.D.: 19.0 95%: ±14.3 Hodgdon Lil'Gun, 16.8 grains, Standard Crimp 1) 1397.0 2) 1362.0 3) 1357.0 4) 1364.0 5) 1383.0 6) 1341.0 7) 1351.0 8) 1342.0 High: 1397.0 Low: 1341.0 E.S.: 56.0 Ave.: 1362.13 S.D.: 19.48 Hodgdon Lil'Gun, 16.8 grains, Heavy Crimp 1) 1358.0 2) 1314.0 3) 1350.0 4) 1327.0 5) 1320.0 6) 1333.0 7) 1315.0 8) 1366.0 9) 1316.0 10) 1323.0 High: 1366.0 Low: 1314.0 E.S.: 52.0 Ave.: 1332.2 S.D.: 19.1 95%: ±14.4 Hodgdon Lil'Gun, 17 grains, Heavy Crimp, Smith & Wesson 610 1) 1448.0 2) 1432.0 3) 1518.0 4) 1418.0 5) 1363.0 6) 1421.0 High: 1518.0 Low: 1363.0 E.S.: 155.0 Ave.: 1433.33 S.D.: 50.44 Ultimately, I am disappointed with Lil'Gun in the 10mm. Of course, I never expected world-shattering velocities. But I was hopeful that I would see very good velocities with good shot-to-shot velocity consistency. Unfortunately, the consistency is terrible. Lil'Gun is the superstar in the .357 Magnum and is great in many magnum cartridges. It just doesn't look like the right propellant for the 10mm. It may be possible to get great velocities and consistency in the Smith & Wesson 610 by loading the cartridges longer than 1.260". But in the automatics, you usually can't do that and expect reliability. If someone has success with Lil'Gun in the 10mm, or even an interesting theory about what to try, please post it.
  3. Bringsteen

    2400 In The 10MM?

    Definitely let us know. I am excited to hear about what kind of velocities you are getting. Unfortunately, Alliant doesn't provide the psi rating for its 10mm loads (at least on the website). This would make it much easier to experiment. The 180 grain load calls for 12.8 grains, with a velocity of 1214 fps. There are published data for two or three powders that will exceed this velocity by at least 100 fps. Thus, you may have to try using magnum primers with a slightly larger charge weight. 2400 is slower than any other powder for which there are currently published data in the 10mm. So you are quite likely to run out of space before pressures get out of hand.
  4. Bringsteen

    Hodgdon Lil'Gun Works in the 10mm!

    The brass looked good. There were no "Glocksmiles." The primers were somewhat flattened, but nowhere near as bad as some of the IMR 800-X loads I have worked with.
  5. Bringsteen

    Hodgdon Lil'Gun Works in the 10mm!

    New Data--Serious Velocities The new data are interesting and a little confusing. Once again, I used 180 grain Hornady XTP's, new brass, handloaded each charge, and put a heavy crimp on the cases. As you can see, the 17 grain charges were slightly faster than the 17.5 grain charges. Hodgdon Lil’Gun, 17.0 grains _ 1)_1409.0_ 13.3 _ 2)_1402.0_ 6.3 _ 3)_1434.0_ 38.3 _ 4)_1371.0_ -24.7 _ 5)_1408.0_ 12.3 _ 6)_1397.0_ 1.3 _ 7)_1419.0_ 23.3 _ 8)_1373.0_ -22.7 _ 9)_1378.0_ -17.7 _ 10)_1366.0_ -29.7 __ High:_1434.0 __ Low:_1366.0 __ E.S.:_ 68.0 __ Ave.:_1395.7 __ S.D.:_ 22.9 __ 95%:_ ±17.3 Hodgdon Lil’Gun, 17.5 grains _ 1)_1351.0_ -37.8 _ 2)_1399.0_ 10.2 _ 3)_1428.0_ 39.2 _ 4)_1414.0_ 25.2 _ 5)_1392.0_ 3.2 _ 6)_1337.0_ -51.8 _ 7)_1383.0_ -5.8 _ 8)_1381.0_ -7.8 _ 9)_1414.0_ 25.2 _ 10)_1390.0_ 0.2 __ High:_1428.0 __ Low:_1337.0 __ E.S.:_ 91.0 __ Ave.:_1388.8 __ S.D.:_ 29.8 __ 95%:_ ±24.3 What is frustrating is that the highest average velocity (1395.7) is actually lower than the highest average velocity using Accurate #9 (1400.9). But the maximum velocity with the Lil'Gun loads was higher (1434) than the #9 loads (1417). I will probably experiment with using a slightly lighter crimp and dropping down by a few tenths of a grain. It may be that compressing Lil'Gun in the 10mm doesn't do any good. Compression loads work for some powder/cartridge combinations, and not for others. I will also try to load them just a little bit longer, but the need for reliability dictates that I only stretch them by a few thousands of an inch, so it may not make any difference.
  6. Bringsteen

    Hodgdon Lil'Gun Works in the 10mm!

    Outstanding. Be sure to post your results. If you don't have a Lee Crimp die, you may want to invest in one. They are about $15 and make it much easier to put a tight crimp on the 10mm.
  7. Bringsteen

    Hodgdon Lil'Gun Works in the 10mm!

    I fired the strings on a clear, bright day, so I can't speak to the flash. The concussion seemed a bit less than my full-power #9 loads. I didn't notice any unburned particles of powder. But remember, I was using magnum primers and a very heavy crimp. I am hopeful that as I work my way up, that I will find Lil'Gun to be an outstanding powder for high-powered 10mm loads.
  8. Bringsteen

    Hodgdon Lil'Gun Works in the 10mm!

    I am sure that they're out there. My goal is to find a powder that will replace IMR 800-X. It is too hard to work with and the pressures can be dangerously spiky.
  9. Bringsteen

    Hodgdon Lil'Gun Works in the 10mm!

    I am convinced that some of the powders in existence would be great for the 10mm, but the companies just have not taken the time to to the testing. I guess they haven't realized that the 10mm is hot again.
  10. Bringsteen

    Hodgdon Lil'Gun Works in the 10mm!

    Let us know how it goes. If the velocities can safely be pushed higher, then Lil'Gun may be the ultimate powder for someone with a 10mm and .44mag, or a 10mm and .357mag.
  11. This was cross-posted at Glocktalk in the 10mm Reloading Forum. THESE DATA ARE NOT FROM A RELOADING GUIDE. YOU ASSUME ALL RESPONSIBILITY CONCERNING YOUR USE OF THESE DATA. After much theorizing, I decided to load Hodgdon Lil’Gun in the 10mm. My starting loads were based on a number of factors: --maximum working pressure for the 10mm (which, at 37,500, is lower in practice than some people realize); --Hodgdon’s various Lil’Gun loads for the .327 Federal, .38 Super, and .357 Magnum; --total grain capacities of the 10mm and the above calibers; and, --my experience with the 10mm’s slowest recommended powder, Accurate #9. These factors do not add up to an ability to perfectly predict the outcome. But I am happy to note that not only was I able to complete the testing safely, but I came up with some rather promising results. Components: --Hornady 180 grain XTP bullets; --New Starline brass; --CCI 350 Magnum Pistol Primers. Everything I read about Lil’Gun indicated that it requires a magnum primer and a heavy crimp. In preparing these loads, I seated and lightly crimped the bullets with a conventional seating/crimping die, then immediately put a heavy-duty crimp on them with a Lee Crimp die. I did the initial crimp before the heavy-duty crimp because some of the charges were slightly compressed. Incidentally, while Hodgdon has warned in the past that Lil’Gun should not be compressed, in the 2009 Hodgdon reloading manual Hodgdon published a compressed Lil’Gun load for the .38 Super. I loaded all cartridges to just under 1.26". As a baseline, I fired two strings of high-power Accurate #9 loads on the same day as the Lil'Gun loads. All strings were fired in the same pistol, my Colt Delta Elite Gold Cup. I used a 24 pound Wolf recoil spring, coupled with the original recoil spring plug, which incorporates a smaller, secondary spring. My Delta Elite does not have a fully-supported chamber. Accurate #9, 15 grains _ 1)_1331.0_ -32.6 f _ 2)_1366.0_ 2.4 _ 3)_1370.0_ 6.4 _ 4)_1373.0_ 9.4 _ 5)_1365.0_ 1.4 _ 6)_1354.0_ -9.6 _ 7)_1360.0_ -3.6 _ 8)_1368.0_ 4.4 _ 9)_1370.0_ 6.4 _ 10)_1379.0_ 15.4 __ High:_1379.0 __ Low:_1331.0 __ E.S.:_ 48.0 __ Ave.:_1363.6 __ S.D.:_ 13.3 __ 95%:_ ±10.0 Accurate #9, 15.5 grains _ 1)_1393.0_ -7.9 _ 2)_1417.0_ 16.1 _ 3)_1398.0_ -2.9 _ 4)_1395.0_ -5.9 _ 5)_1405.0_ 4.1 _ 6)_1410.0_ 9.1 _ 7)_1399.0_ -1.9 _ 8)_1413.0_ 12.1 _ 9)_1396.0_ -4.9 _ 10)_1383.0_ -17.9 __ High:_1417.0 __ Low:_1383.0 __ E.S.:_ 34.0 __ Ave.:_1400.9 __ S.D.:_ 10.3 __ 95%:_ ±7.8 Hodgdon Lil’Gun, 15 grains _ 1)_1219.0_ -19.8 _ 2)_1217.0_ -21.8 _ 3)_1260.0_ 21.2 _ 4)_1256.0_ 17.2 _ 5)_1265.0_ 26.2 _ 6)_1247.0_ 8.2 _ 7)_1242.0_ 3.2 _ 8)_1224.0_ -14.8 _ 9)_1233.0_ -5.8 _ 10)_1225.0_ -13.8 __ High:_1265.0 __ Low:_1217.0 __ E.S.:_ 48.0 __ Ave.:_1238.8 __ S.D.:_ 17.7 __ 95%:_ ±13.4 Hodgdon Lil’Gun, 15.5 grains _ 1)_1250.0_ -5.3 _ 2)_1254.0_ -1.3 _ 3)_1267.0_ 11.7 _ 4)_1227.0_ -28.3 _ 5)_1286.0_ 30.7 _ 6)_1272.0_ 16.7 _ 7)_1266.0_ 10.7 _ 8)_1216.0_ -39.3 _ 9)_1238.0_ -17.3 _ 10)_1277.0_ 21.7 __ High:_1286.0 __ Low:_1216.0 __ E.S.:_ 70.0 __ Ave.:_1255.3 __ S.D.:_ 22.7 __ 95%:_ ±17.1 Hodgdon Lil’Gun, 16 grains _ 1)_1282.0_ -4.5 _ 2)_1314.0_ 27.5 _ 3)_1282.0_ -4.5 _ 4)_1285.0_ -1.5 _ 5)_1304.0_ 17.5 _ 6)_1298.0_ 11.5 _ 7)_1253.0_ -33.5 _ 8)_1268.0_ -18.5 _ 9)_1279.0_ -7.5 _ 10)_1300.0_ 13.5 __ High:_1314.0 __ Low:_1253.0 __ E.S.:_ 61.0 __ Ave.:_1286.5 __ S.D.:_ 18.1 __ 95%:_ ±13.7 Hodgdon Lil’Gun, 16.5 grains _ 1)_1246.0_ -47.7 _ 2)_1323.0_ 29.3 _ 3)_1286.0_ -7.7 _ 4)_1310.0_ 16.3 _ 5)_1320.0_ 26.3 _ 6)_1297.0_ 3.3 _ 7)_1286.0_ -7.7 _ 8)_1282.0_ -11.7 _ 9)_1273.0_ -20.7 _ 10)_1314.0_ 20.3 __ High:_1323.0 __ Low:_1246.0 __ E.S.:_ 77.0 __ Ave.:_1293.7 __ S.D.:_ 24.0 __ 95%:_ ±18.1 These results are quite promising. The fired brass and primers looked very healthy. As noted earlier, I fired these in a pistol without a fully-supported chamber. While I often see “Glocksmiles” (even though it is a Colt) when shooting high-power 800-X loads, there were none to be found from the Lil’Gun loads. An average of 1293 is nothing to write home about, particularly considering the 1400 fps average in the 15.5 grain Accurate #9 load. But the fact is that Lil’Gun works in the 10mm! I don’t have time right now, but I am interested in moving up .5 grain to 1 grain. I hope that this information is valuable.
  12. Bringsteen

    800X Loads for under 180grn?

    I don't think that you're going to be fried. IMR's factory 10mm data (which is the "old" data referred to earlier and is available in The Complete Reloading Manual for the 10mm and .40 S&W) recommends 14.5 grains of 800-X under a Nosler 135 grain hollow point. This yields 1670 fps at 33,100 psi. Given that the maximum working psi for the 10mm is 37,500, you have a 4,400 psi cushion at this charge weight. Starting at 13.4 grains, you should be fine. Just be careful.
  13. Bringsteen

    800X Loads for under 180grn?

    I don't think so. As far as "magnum" 10mm powders go, 800-X is actually a bit on the fast side. It is faster than Accurate No. 7, Hodgdon Longshot, Alliant Blue Dot, and Accurate No. 9. The only good reason I can think of to use a magnum primer with 800-X is to take advantage of the heavier primer cup. But there is a catch-22, which I failed to note earlier: magnum primers will generate higher pressures. So, if you need to use a magnum primer to deal with high pressures, realize that the magnum primer itself will generate even higher pressures than you would have had with regular primers.
  14. Bringsteen

    800X Loads for under 180grn?

    When working with 800-X at these charge sizes, it is important to use magnum primers. 800-X doesn't necessarily need a magnum primer for full deflagration, but the heavier primer cup helps to avoid primer perforation. CCI 350 magnum primers work very well. The old IMR data were for the 135 grain Nosler hollow point. I think that you'll be fine using these data with your Sierra 135's. Sierra and Nosler pistol bullets tend to be the size they are supposed to be, in contrast to Hornady bullets, which are usually a few ten-thousandths of an inch wider, ostensibly to improve accuracy. As noted above, hand-weigh your loads. IMR works like magic in the 10mm, but it meters like paper plates.
  15. I had my hope up for Autocomp, but it appears too fast. In Hodgdon's 2009 Reloading Manual (on the magazine rack right now), for a 180 grain bullet, 7.7 grains of Autocomp yields 1199 fps at 36,000 psi. In the same column, 8.7 grains of IMR 800-X yields 1210 fps at 30,000 psi. There's just no comparison. On the other hand, accuracy and lack of fouling may be excellent with Autocomp. I don't know.
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