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    Rineyville, Ky
  1. No my point in that fictional court room is not that you can load with ricin etc, my point is, that regardless, the lawyers job is to demonize you, and the concept of too much gun or the most powerful factory ammo is as good a place as any. BUT, my main point of this discussion, and the only reason I posted in the first place is.. Was to point out to Orion that his "tons of case law" doesn't exist. There is no case evidence of anyone EVER being sent to jail for using handloads in self defense. EVER. For the record, I carry Hydra-shoks. and I agree, carry what you want.
  2. I still have the brass from the 1st box (well, every box) of 45LC I bought in '85, those cases have probably been reloaded at least 25 times, still fine.
  3. Gun writers can SAY whatever they wan't, the FACT is, no one has gone to jail for using a handload in a defensive shoot. NO ONE. Sure lawyers are going to do/say anything to try to win, that is their job. My point is and continues to be, it just hasn't happened, no matter what M.A. and friends thinks might happen. And I only used 1 cite.. believe me 1 goggle search will find you plenty more, but the post was already going to be huge.. I note people come up with this mistaken idea about handloads all the time.. and for some, it some how makes sense to them... but lets look at something that falls in the same mindset... Lawyer for dead perps family questioning YOU after a defensive shooting.. Mr. Orion .. isn't it TRUE you advoctae using Double Tap and Buffalo Bore ammo for use in your CCW??? Is that not, in fact what you used to MURDER my client's baby boy who was just about to turn his life around?? Is it not also true Mr orion that you chose that ammo because of it's reputation for being very POWERFULL? Because you wanted to see just what 726 ftpds of energy would do to my client's only boy? You were ITCHING for a chance to try that ammo werent you!!?? In fact we know you were, why else would you carry a 10MM?? you could have just as easily defended your self with a 9mm, and 115 FMJ's.. but NO! you NEEDED to carry a 10MM with this special ammo you ordered on-line, just hoping to get a chance to use it on SOMEONE!! and my client's poor little baby is gone from here because of you.. etc etc.. if you get in to something like this every possible angle is going to be tried, that is a fact that can be found out by looking into some actual cases. But when you look into it, and may I suggest the NRA-ILA archives, they really do have some good stuff in there, you will find no one has been prosecuted for using a handload.
  4. Please cite this statement. Show me piles of case law that put someone in jail for using a handload in a self defense shooting. I have been in the shooting sports, and dealing with guns for nearly 40 years, reloading the whole time, CCW for most of it. I have NEVER seen actual evidence of it even coming up in trial let alone ANYONE doing time for using handloads in self defense. For instance her is a "cite" originaly written in '03, but reviewed and copyrighted in '07.. makes it a couple years old, but again as far as I have EVER heard still valid 100%. http://www.john-ross.net/index.php Comments on Using Handloads for Self-Defense By John Ross Copyright 2007 by John Ross. Electronic reproduction of this article freely permitted provided it is reproduced in its entirety with attribution given. Many shooters who reload ask about the best recipes for self-defense loads for use in their carry guns. Certain defensive-shooting writers, most notably Massad Ayoob, advise against using any handloaded ammunition for this purpose. They paint a picture of a prosecutor demonizing the shooter for wanting to craft special ammo even deadlier and with more maiming ability than what the factories produce. The single exception Ayoob listed (and here he was tepid in his endorsement) was for someone who needed a defensive load in a powerful, deep-penetrating caliber like the .44 Magnum. To avoid overpenetration and injuring others with a shoot-through, a less-powerful loading than factory fodder might be appropriate. The instance of a prosecutor going after a citizen for using handloads in a defensive shooting has not actually happened anywhere that anyone can document. The Internet discussion boards call it an “urban legend from Massad Ayoob,” which is maybe not fair to Ayoob. I don’t think Massad ever claimed a specific case where it had happened, only that it could. There is one area where handloads have caused problems for investigators, and ironically it is mild loads like the kind mentioned above that are most likely to get the shooter in trouble. This is in those cases where there's a serious dispute about how far away the shooter was from the shootee when he pulled the trigger. Forensic experts can pin this distance down very accurately if they have the gun used and identical factory ammo. Handloads, though, can vary widely depending on powder type and pressure level. Obviously, if forensics have samples of identical ammo, like the unfired rounds still in your gun, there should be no problem, although three or four samples may not be enough to perform the needed tests. But what if you've emptied your gun? How do you prove the stuff on your loading bench is the same as the rounds you touched off? The truth is, you can’t. Theoretical problem area: You whip up a batch of low-recoil, mild .44 loads with low blast signature, for lower recoil and to prevent overpenetration. You encounter a group of would-be attackers, strung out on whatever is that day's drug of choice, who are out "wilding" (which is what happened to the Central Park Jogger.) They ignore your demands to stop and drop their contact weapons (pipes etc.). They keep coming and you finally pop the closest ones at 7-10 feet, firing all 6 rounds at these two who keep pressing the attack as the third and fourth flee. Thug 1 is dead, Thug 2 crippled but alive, Thugs 3 and 4 free for now until Thug 2 tells the police who they are. Because of your light load, the residue on the clothing of the dead and wounded is almost undetectable, similar to what a factory magnum load would generate at, say, 20 feet. Will Al Sharpton get involved? Will Thugs 2, 3,and 4 claim they were over 20 feet away and on their way to church service when you opened fire on them? Will they all agree you screamed a racial epithet at them and when they turned to see who the Klansman was, you just started blasting? Will police say that if you thought they were a threat you should have retreated? Will they say you fired too soon? The likeliest testimony from forensics will be "Based on the forensic evidence, we can't say with any confidence how far Mr. Citizen was from Mr. Thug when he shot him. It may have been a few feet, but it may have been over 20. We don't know." A prosecutor arguing that a defendant misused lethal force by creating extra-powerful handloads is an imaginative "what if" that has never actually happened in a courtroom. A prosecutor arguing that a defendant misused lethal force because he shot someone who was far enough away that he was not an immediate threat is a very real argument that has been presented to juries on many occasions. Having said that, realize that I carry a .44 S&W where legal and have for 28 years. I have NEVER carried factory ammo. My load of choice for the 29 is a full power load using a 275 grain Jim Harvey (Lakeville Arms) 3/4 jacket semiwadcutter hollow point that expands violently. I am revising my thinking for the much lighter 329 (which I love.) I'm leaning towards a full wadcutter out of soft lead at 1000-ish. Time for more tests with ordnance gelatin.
  5. Luck is with me.. Walked out into the woods yesterday afternoon about 1630, about 1705, pulled the trigger of my 'ol Marlin 336 30-30 on another nice fat doe. But my first ever chance to field dress a deer in the dark, with no one to hold a light... 25 minutes with a surefire G2 in my teeth while trying not to cut my own hand off while breaking a pelvis with my darn skinning knife because I left my hatchet in the garage and didn't want to walk back the 15 minutes each way to get it has left me with a jaw to tired to chew jerky.. lol Another week of modern gun, and a week of black powder in December.... so 17 more days to get one with the plains rifle.. and I will have my "venisonquadfecta"..lol still have not filled my antlered tag, would be nice to get a nice rack with a rifle I built myself and a ball I cast.. Back on topic.. it occures to me, as discussing the fact that people have to look to try to find "non-FBI" loads for their 10's, and I stated lots of people rarely shoot a gun to it's full potential.. I have a .44mag snubbie that I am sure has NEVER, in the 20+ years I have owned it, shot anything but specials. :tinybuck:
  6. Looks like it's Georgia Arms.. Linky good to know I guess.
  7. When I carry a G20, which is pretty much all I carry Oct-Apr, I carry with a 6", because, well they both have 6" barrels and I am to lazy to swap them out. The rest of the year I roll with a Commander in .45 or a G27.
  8. I meant no disrespect to ANY company out there loading for 10, and thank those who do, as many 10'ers have to start out at least, with factory ammo, but I think most do gravitate to reloading if they stay with the cartridge, I only chose DT as an example because they seem to be the most popular and have several loads to compare stats of. I have only shot a couple boxes of their ammo I "came into", ordering from them, in my direct experience, is not for me. Many people do put up with how they run their shop, I won't. maypo59.
  9. DT is well known for selling "full power" 10mm loads, but a quick look will show that they have "full power" loads from 575ftlbs to 700+ftlbs.
  10. I don't know what "bouncing" is. It Implies that thier email server and list was not compromised, only piggy backed or something, but I seriously doubt that's the case. I have 4 email addys, 2 have been used to place orders at DT.. and amazingly, both recieved spam. Only one way for that to happen. Thier list is public in some manner.
  11. Yep, got both. Bothered by the fact that, as a business, they got their e-mail hacked, I like that "our" data is stored on another computer so it's safe...? why is it safe there if the email computer can be compromised, how do I know the data computer can't? and I like they say to call them if you have questions...lol all you guys trying to track down an order or get info about barrels or ammo, call now!! they may answer the phone! they won't answer your email though, as the one I sent about the spam bounced back to me, as did the message I sent through thier "contact us" link.
  12. I'm thinking, if you want a "big Ford", say anything in the 250+ class, a 10mm, while a fine round, is not enough. A 150, or Harley Edition, sure, but if you get into some of them bigger "farm" trucks, they take a little more to put down cleanly. YMMV.
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