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bamashooter

AR Pistol Initial Range Report

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and a question plus observation at the end.

 

Finished a few days ago and was waiting for a break from the rain to test / zero. Way too muggy but did it this morning.

 

rVkZW8l.jpg

 

Build (5.56)

Stag Arms lefty upper rcvr and bcg
Colt 6920 lower rcvr (factory H buffer)
Faxon SOCOM 10.5" barrel (.081" gas port)
Retro Rifles 3.5" XM177 Moderator / Flash Suppressor (6 slots like A1 flash hider)
Raptor LT ambi-charging handle
CMC Lantac E-CT1 single stage flat trigger w/ anti-rotation pins
Brownells black nitride carbine-length gas tube
Midwest Industries low profile gas block
Matrix 9" (9.56") MLOK handguard
SBA3 pistol brace
MBUS front/rear (remove peep from rear)
Blitzkrieg Chevron front sight post (Green)
Holosun HS510C Reflex / Red Dot

Zeroed hard sights and optic at 50 meters

Took 7 rounds to zero the hard sights and 5 rounds for the optic.

Ammunition was PMC X-TAC FMJ-BT (decent stuff and I have a bunch from sales)

Too hot and muggy. Looked like I'd been swimming.

Shot individual rounds vs groups. 40 rounds total which meant 40 round trips of 100 meters per round trip. lol The walk was partial shade and targets full shade.

Once each was dialed in (using a front sandbag), accuracy was as hoped and expected. Quarter-size easily and much of it was actually nickel with a couple or so almost same holes.

Pistol did very well. Perfect function and not much "kick" or boom at all. Really could tell no difference between this 10.5" and any of my 16" carbines.

All brass tossed about 6-8 ft to a 7:30-8:15 position (that sounds weird). Probably within a 2 ft circle.

This is my second Holosun and really like it. 2 moa dot w. 65 moa circle. It'll display both or each singularly.

Wasn't quite sure what to expect from the chevron post. It's adjustment is in increments of 180* vs 90* for a standard front sight post. I lucked out and as it turned out, I didn't need to compensate my POA due to that lack of finess. Hope I got this right. One side only has the chevron thus more turns are required to observe the chevron. Nice bright yellow in day light and it lumineces a bright green in low / no light after charging. It did very well against cheap, lily-white paper plates.

The SBA3 brace did very well. Hard to beat its quality Though the brace is compatible with any mil-spec carbine extension, I found it had only 3 positions where it locked in on the Colt tube. The Colt on Colt is 4 position. The SBA3 with its included tube is 5 position. With the brace fully forward on the Colt tube, its not locked in. I don't see that as an issue.

All in all, I could not have asked for better. I took an H2 and H3 along but did not try them.

 

Question: Another guy on another forum has possible malfunction issues with his 2 new Faxon barrels. https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/my-2-new-faxon-5-56-ar-15-barrels-are-too-overgassed-sigh.838939/ His second posted photo shows groups of tossed brass. The group of 3 on the right is exactly my brass looked like today, however, I had no malfunctions and was very pleased up and and down. His pic is better quality than mine. What's causing those "marks"? Chamber? Any concern?

 

Here's a random sampling of my brass. It's like a zillion smudgy circles totally around the brass. Can't feel them at all yet don't rub out with toothpaste / rag.

 

MLWJ7uS.jpg

 

Observation regarding the SiteGlo paint.

 

I applied a drop to a black piece of plastic. It'll glow ok when charged however it's also advertised as being "fluorescent' in the light. Look at the upper left dot. Not much there. Disregard the dot beneath it. Look at the larger dot and the mess on the napkin. Very fluorescent. The difference in dots is put a drop of white paint down, let it dry, then applied the SiteGlo. It's very thick stuff and probably perfect for covering white dots on pistols and such. Believe it's too thick to attempt on those crosshairs I have. When I saw the napkin, I said AHA!

 

erzwPU6.jpg

Edited by bamashooter
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That appears to be one nasty chamber. Never had any of mine look like that...the only bad chamber I had showed vertical chatter marks kind of like a fluted chamber.

 

Rounds 1,8,9,and 10 all have the exact same pattern on them......clean that chamber real good and try again and see if it still does it.

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That appears to be one nasty chamber. Never had any of mine look like that...the only bad chamber I had showed vertical chatter marks kind of like a fluted chamber.

 

Rounds 1,8,9,and 10 all have the exact same pattern on them......clean that chamber real good and try again and see if it still does it.

Ok. I scrubbed it really good days ago and gave it a light lube followed by multiple "wipe out any excess" patches, days ago upon receipt, prior to assembly. Spic and span. I'll do it again. I reckon I don't understand the extraction process. Thought it yanked them out but these look like they were spun or turned on a lathe. They're all consistent. Between my picture taking and lighting some appear much worse than others. But they're pretty much cookie cutter. Sure can't feel the mars though.

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Another glaring thing to me is that the damage appears to be above the web on all those cases. I'd check that chamber with go/no-go gauges if I were you.

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Maybe it's that chatter thing. Upon studying the cases under a high power magnifying glass, those marks are actually several series of marks running vertically or, along the long axis of the brass, to include the neck which holds the bullet. I have a live round I had ejected. It has a few of those marks and the, for lack of a better term, rifling marks along the bullet jacket. Are the rifling marks not cool or normal?

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Maybe feed ramp marks on bullet , unlikely factory ammo going far enough in to contact rifling.

Maybe it's that chatter thing. Upon studying the cases under a high power magnifying glass, those marks are actually several series of marks running vertically or, along the long axis of the brass, to include the neck which holds the bullet. I have a live round I had ejected. It has a few of those marks and the, for lack of a better term, rifling marks along the bullet jacket. Are the rifling marks not cool or normal?

Sent from my Moto E (4) using Tapatalk

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Maybe feed ramp marks on bullet , unlikely factory ammo going far enough in to contact rifling.

Sent from my Moto E (4) using Tapatalk

Ok. That make sense. Just reexamined it and sure enough, I believe you nailed it. Paranoia is running deep lately. Thanks.

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Dang. Now that I think about, I didn't touch the chamber during that initial cleaning session, only the bore and extension. Kind of think it might be a less than stellar reaming but I'll clean it up and see what happens. Thanks.

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Thoroughly scrubbed chamber this morning. First thing, chamber brush breaks off. WTH? Fortunately, the threaded piece stayed on the rod. unscrewed and tossed. Curved needle noses removed brush. Next brush did fine.

 

Shot 8 rounds. Same deal. Went to town and on way back stopped at our one good gun store. Showed the brass to a friend / gunsmith / counter man. He's built and worked on several ARs. Didn't have his damn bore scope in the store but was certain it was a less than stellar ream job on the chamber. Said he'd seen worse. He recommended putting Faxon only on notice about the chamber considering it fully functions well, good accuracy, etc. Or if they insist, send the barrel back on their dime. So here's how he explained what's going on (but I personally don't know for certain).

 

Weapon is discharged

Brass expands

Gas cycles the innards

Empty case is extracted and tossed

Due to the roughness of the chamber, the brass swells into the roughness and in my case, extracts

During the extraction, the case remains kissing those rough areas

The marred brass is caused both by swelling into the rough stuff and upon extraction, thus the zillion yet tiny "drag" marks.

 

He asked if my bcg was extra dirty and did I catch any sign of gasses / particulate (powder) hitting my face. No, there was no extra grunge to my bcg or inside the rcvr / CH or on my face.

 

He told me if there was noticeable gas / particulate escaping and that it would have likely been noticeable. He also said had an escape of gas been so bad from a really funky chamber, the bolt probably would not have locked back after the last round.

 

Kind of makes sense to me but ............ I don't really know. :D:

 

As I was entering my deputy buddy's property this morning, he was about to leave for duty. Shot the bull for minutes and showed him the new pistol. Now he wants me to build him one exactly like it. I mean each and every part. More than happy to of course but I have 2 issues.

 

Though I mean no bashing of Faxon, I might consider another barrel. Moments ago, I went and examined the brass from my side charger (16" Faxon Socom) and it's the same deal; only to a lesser extent but still easily visible.

 

Secondly, at the moment, he really wants a Colt lower (6920) like mine. We'll see. No rush Sales between now and 2019.

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The chamber needs polished out. Easy to do but I'd send it back if that bothered me. A bit of bore paste or FLITZ and a drill works fine.

 

Greg

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The chamber needs polished out. Easy to do but I'd send it back if that bothered me. A bit of bore paste or FLITZ and a drill works fine.

 

Greg

No big deal? A chamber mop or equivalent, drill, and a bit of flitz? Love Flitz. No major concern of screwing this up? It doesn't bother enough to jump up and down, cuss Faxon, etc. The gun guy told me the only thing I really need to do if left as is, is to make sure I clean the chamber regularly after shooting due to the attraction of the carbon to the roughness within the chamber. Makes sense. I like doing stuff. I just fit a .38 / 9mm mop in the chamber and slowly rotated. Excellent fit with a little drag. Good with the Flitz. Earlier I watched what I would consider a borderline ocd type doing the chamber with Mother's polish. In his case, he said he was "experiencing some tightness". A bit long and not really exciting to watch, but I skimmed it enough to appreciate his effort.

 

Firearm he was working on (.308). Warning: Most folks likely wouldn't be able to watch 5 minutes of this guy. I can handle some. No doubt he's either an engineer or IT type. He just has to be. :D:

 

Though hard to tell, it appeared he did the polishing in 45-60 second increments up to 5-6 times. I realize you gotta do some polishing, fire the weapon, repeat as necessary. Reckon 45-60 second increments up to 5-6 times would be a good starting point? However, I think Flitz might be a bit more abrasive than Mother's. Thanks.

 

At the moment, I'm good. Pistol works great but if I can clean up the chamber, why not?

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Flitz is not that bad. I also use JB Bore pate . A few 45/60 second passes will be fine to start. You can asses as you shoot the gun. DO NOT MAKE THIS SHINE LIKE A DIAMOND IN A BILLY GOATS BUTT!! The chamber must be slightly imperfect as too slick will not allow the case to grab the walls in expansion and you raise the bolt face thrust on those shiny ones.

 

Greg

 

Trust me if I do it it is no big deal..LOL I use a 45 caliber patch wrapped around a shotgun slotted jag with the paste smeared on the patch.

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Sounds good. I have plenty of .45-sized patches and the shotgun slotted jag. Thanks.

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Another glaring thing to me is that the damage appears to be above the web on all those cases. I'd check that chamber with go/no-go gauges if I were you.

I see the "bare" spot (web) your refer to but I don't get what your saying, implying there might be a head space issue, of which, I know nothing. Took me an hour to find what "web" was and I'm still not certain where it begins and ends. Less the flaws, the cases look good. Nothing weird (rookie term) such as swells, f'd up looking primers, potential cracks, etc. Help please.

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Use a set of dial indicators to measure the case at and below where the damage is to see how much the case is expanding above the web. That can be indicative of a headspace issue.

 

Years ago I had a .303Brit that was really bad. I bought Norma ammo (for the brass to reload), and the second time through the gun every case cracked at the top of the web....EVERY ONE!

I didn't pour any more money down that rat hole.

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Use a set of dial indicators to measure the case at and below where the damage is to see how much the case is expanding above the web. That can be indicative of a headspace issue.

 

Years ago I had a .303Brit that was really bad. I bought Norma ammo (for the brass to reload), and the second time through the gun every case cracked at the top of the web....EVERY ONE!

I didn't pour any more money down that rat hole.

Two spent cases: Both measured .3725 in the lower clean area and .367 in the center.

 

One unfired round measured .371 in the same lower area and .3665 in the center.

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First off head space is the measure from the case head base to the shoulder. It has nothing to do with the rear/web area. Head space gauges will only measure this. They do not measure chamber diameter.

 

The shiny untouched area you see is the case web. It does not expand much. Every other case in your armory does the same thing. If we overload/over pressure a round we do get excessive swelling in this area exhibited right above this. This one stands out because of the rough chamber. If this one was perfectly smooth it is unlikely that anyone would give it a second thought. Look at a sized case off your press and you will see a very light ring around it where the web area tapers down to the extractor cut.

 

The numbers stated are about normal for expansion on a fired case in a 223 in a normal chamber with a normal load.

 

I have one custom gun that came a bit rough that I polished up and was happy with and contacted the maker that he needed a better final polish on his chambers. He agreed and now everything is wonderful with that company based on current samplings. I'd polish it up a tad but as I mentioned earlier you can always send it back but chances are good you won't get a chamber that is perfectly smooth.

 

Just my thoughts on this one.

 

Greg

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Thanks my friend. I feel better. Though I'm fine with the gun and don't want to send the barrel back, I'm kind of itching to do a "smart" chamber cleanup. I reckon the sooner the better regarding less carbon in there and all that. I'd still like to have a set of go/no go gauges if they're really worth having. They have my curiosity. A set like these. I just can't justify hundreds of dollars or actually over this 60.00 set. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Headspace-Gages-2-223-Remington-Both-Go-No-Go-Gauges/192602155413?epid=1408030919&hash=item2cd7fba995%3Ag%3A0ywAAOSwbEZbB4xC%3Asc%3AUSPSFirstClass%2135098%21US%21-1&_sacat=0&_nkw=.556+head+space+gauge&_from=R40&rt=nc&LH_TitleDesc=0%7C0

 

Or perhaps a field gauge. https://shop.windhamweaponry.com/products/556-field

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I would not bother with the FIELD gauge. It will show you a huge chamber but wlil not be usable in a good properly sized one. It gives you one data point and that's it. A standard set will give you two numbers. Way oversized or on the money. If the GO doesn't fit you are short. If the GO fits you can add a piece of tape to it and make a NO GO gauge that is about 0.003 longer.

 

You aren't going to many that will accept the No Go based on modern tooling tolerance. Remember if you hand load you can deal with about any size. I won't tell you what I can do with a reamer for a 264 LBC and a Grendel bolt but it is wonderful. You can fire form 7.62X39 in a Grendel chamber and make brass and it is far past what a NO GO gauge would lead you to use. Or you can shoot 22 Russian in a 6 MM PPC chamber with 22 bullets and be done with it. Lots of things to do if you look at specs and history.

 

Greg

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I would be a mad man and perhaps an injured man if I loaded ammunition. Oh the crazy possibilities. "I think I got it, watch this." kind of stuff. :D:

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Flitz is not that bad. I also use JB Bore pate . A few 45/60 second passes will be fine to start. You can asses as you shoot the gun. DO NOT MAKE THIS SHINE LIKE A DIAMOND IN A BILLY GOATS BUTT!! The chamber must be slightly imperfect as too slick will not allow the case to grab the walls in expansion and you raise the bolt face thrust on those shiny ones.

 

Greg

 

Trust me if I do it it is no big deal..LOL I use a 45 caliber patch wrapped around a shotgun slotted jag with the paste smeared on the patch.

Diamond in a billy goats butt? Is that the same as shinning it where you can see your reflection?

 

Most of the goats here are raised for quinceanera parties or bbq's.

Edited by Joel74
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The Flitz job worked well. Got a couple of dings (1 each) that didn't happen before. I assume it happened at the weapon. I stood on my patio and fired. They might have hit some cinder blocks (short stack) but I don't think so. Kind of odd to dent the brass now. Perhaps the roughness of the chamber before was not allowing the extraction / ejection to be as strong as now. I have an H2 and H3 buffer I can try. The angle of tossed brass was consistent with that from the other day. One dent was significant and the other much less so. The "minor ding was higher up near the line of the shoulder. Believe those longitudinal dark lines are a reflection of my camera phone.

 

fPbNIFl.jpg

 

oZZyPiQ.jpg

Edited by bamashooter

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Those are ejection dents from the deflector. Raid the wife's sewing stash. Get a 5/8 square of Velcro, sticky back, and apply it to the defector. That stops all that case damage. I put it on every upper that is finished and have gone through a couple packs of the stuff.

 

Yes the reflection s on the cases..

 

If you buy a Dremel you can officially call yourself a Gunsmith now.. Congratulations on your first problem solving involving a chamber..

 

Here's the Velcro.

 

OwnRsiH.jpg

 

Greg

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Tested 6 rounds

 

2 per H buffer

2 per a Hybrid Buffer (L.A.R.B. / 3.9oz) I thought it was near H2 but it's a spit above an H. I have no H2. Now I remember. The H2 is in the 8.5" pistol.

2 per H3

 

The H buffer did much better than the previous pic. Each case had a very small indentation even with the red line.

The H2 and H3 had very slightly larger dents at the yellow line.

 

All have distinctly-triangular, pointed dents. They appear to me to be caused by one of those lugs but I really don't know. I've never had triangular shaped indentations from the deflector. With the pistol as is, Would you go with the H, H2, H3? I'm thinking it's a bit over gassed and I don't like stuff slammed if I can prevent it, excluding using an adjustable gas block.

 

99% of the "marring" is gone. Greatly appreciate the suggestion.

 

Accuracy same

All locked back after final rounds

The ejected cases from the H2 and H3 went the same direction but perhaps 12-18 inches shorter

 

New discovery:

 

The rod holding the dust cover walks toward the muzzle. Because of that, the forward-assist end of the dust cover will hang down a bit and barely interferes with the bolt lock / release. Just noticed it. Isn't there a small clip that should be on the pin as it protrudes toward the muzzle?

 

Ok, I see what the deal is. With the cover rod fully seat in the deflector, the e-clip notch is not exposed. Pull the rod toward the muzzle a bit and there's the notch less the e-clip. The hole for the rod within the deflector is not a through-hole, thus, the rod ain't gonna walk out rearward.

 

Since the cover flips up (lefty rcvr), the "fat" part of the hand guard is not there to stop the rod from walking out toward the muzzle. I Probably have a clip to fit but it would do no good.

 

Unless I'm not considering something, I believe this is a flawed design. Additionally, the long leg of the spring is rearward as opposed to right hand covers which have the long leg on the muzzle end. Can't see where that'd make any difference. Reckon I'll just remove the cover assembly though I don't like design flaws (if that's what it is). Picky, picky, picky.

 

Anyhow, I greatly appreciate the chamber-cleanup suggestion. Thanks.

 

This photo is not of today's firings. For illustration purposes only (colored lines).

 

A6qeihC.jpg

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I would think lugs would do more scratching vs. denting. Humor me and try the Velcro. BTW Wally sells it. I use the fuzzy side not the loopy part.

 

As for buffer and this pistol run the heaviest that will run with ANY load. That;'s why I don't bother with buffers.on mine. Adjustable blocks take the worry out of tuning and are cheaper in the long run IMHO plus they save you time if you want to experiment.

 

Greg

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