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ihasagun

Subsonic semiauto?

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In my very limited experience, the semiauto 22s need about 1750 FPS ammo to feed reliably.  Even the 1250 FPS ammo seems to have fairly frequent feed problems.  I’d like to know if it is possible to run one reliably with subsonic ammo, e.g.  for suppressor applications.

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1 hour ago, Flesh Wound said:

Usually you need a heavy bullet to offset speed. Ammo like Aquilla SSS Sniper subsonic 60 grain.

 

https://www.midwayusa.com/Product/2506135961/aguila-sss-sniper-subsonic-ammunition-22-long-rifle-60-grain-lead-round-nose

I shoot a lot of that ammo, and the biggest issue isn't feeding.....it's ejection. Frequently it doesn't work the action hard enough to adequately eject the spent case, so it prevents the bolt going to battery on the next round.

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I think it is also dependent on what platform you are running it in.  I tried some subsonic ammo with a conversion kit and it was very hit and miss but used in a tru 22LR upper I did not have issues.

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2 hours ago, ihasagun said:

In my very limited experience, the semiauto 22s need about 1750 FPS ammo to feed reliably.  Even the 1250 FPS ammo seems to have fairly frequent feed problems.  I’d like to know if it is possible to run one reliably with subsonic ammo, e.g.  for suppressor applications.

I run a lot of CCI Standard Velocity ammo through my guns with no issue, and it's listed @ 1070FPS (1090 out of an 18" barrel). Running any semi-auto gun suppressed, you get more noise at the ejection port than at the muzzle.

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3 minutes ago, Longhair said:

I run a lot of CCI Standard Velocity ammo through my guns with no issue, and it's listed @ 1070FPS (1090 out of an 18" barrel). Running any semi-auto gun suppressed, you get more noise at the ejection port than at the muzzle.

This exactly. I have been running CCI standard velocity for several years , no problems yet.

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Lightened recoil spring?

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What Newbe said.  

 

I run anything I want through any of my semis with no problem, although, I’ve never tried hyper velocity.  As a matter of fact, only subsonic in my Clark.  When I got my 10/22 back from Clark’s, they told me running any high velocity ammo would void their warranty.  Seems like a round with 1700+FPS, would eventually beat the crap out of your gun.  

 

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I do a subsonic load for .223 that cycles an AR just fine.  It involves using a pistol powder in very low amounts.  The problem with rim fires is most of us don't reload them. 

 

Years ago at "Bulletfest" a machine gun shoot, I met these guys who had a Uzi modified to shoot .22lr, a FA btw, with suppressor.  Unbelievably quiet and btw a very fast cycling rate, I had to ask.  They told me the guns were dedicated to .22 lr subsonic and they had not only change the chambering to .22lr but match a spring to the recoil. 

 

A lot of the older semi .22lr handguns and rifles were made to cycle .22 shorts which have a muzzle velocity of 1057 ft/sec. 

 

Tj

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Shooting subs in a semi auto 22 requires the gun be set up for sub rounds, 99% of the time. Reducing the weight of and polishing the bolt recoil spring is one mod and polishing the bolt is also an almost always required mod. Sometimes the bolt needs to be lightened as well. Have built guns for subs since 1965 and have since had many brought to me for mod so they would function properly after being built by some well advertised sub gun builders. The gun is not a NFA item, the suppressor is. We also build suppressors for our own use under a F1 registration. Many of the full functional US built rifles for subsonic use as a semi auto 22 LR are based on the 10/22 because the feed system is very simple, without lifters, added action springs, etc.

 

Regards the SSS 60 grain ammo, It was tested extensively when writing a magazine article about it and it’s function. To achieve good accuracy, by the ballistic computer runs, you should need a minimum of a 10.5 twist and probably could use an 8 twist barrel. The standard twist used by most 22LR barrel makers in the US is a 16 twist and the 16 is not fast enough to stabilize the 60 grain bullet length. We have also rebarreled guns speficly for the SSS cartridge. Reportedly the ATF has restricted the importing and sale of the SSS ammo. Apparently the ATF did not like that the SSS has many attributes of a rifle round in a handgun. Perhaps the ATF modified its stance, as some is seen now and again for sale.

 

Notes from the magazine article: The 60 grain bullet is a RN of standard design, .244 in diameter, length is .700 compared to .48 for a standard LR 40 gr RN bullet. The bullet has 2x the standard RN pull weight. The case and primer is made by Eley and is the case is the same length as a 22 Short or CB Cap case. Anguilla makes the bullet and powder. The powder is a grey flat ball at 1.5 grains, when fired it leaves a residue that appears to be a liquid.

End of article update: The 12 twist single shot I built did not work, twist was too slow.  A friend built a 10 twist 10/22 and it shot the 60s like Magic. 

 

Yesterday we tested the Win black copper plated, subsonic 45 grain RN. It is actually subsonic, makes round holes in paper at 75 yards and surprisingly accurate in the Remington 510 subsonic 16 twist test LR bolt gun. This 510 for subsonic use was built a year ago, replacing the standard long barrel with a old 16.5 inch cut off 510 barrel, with good rifling, that was laying on the shop’s barrel rack.  It has a target crown and QC fixture on the threaded muzzle. Shot at 75 yards it rendered a .25 inch group from a rest with the Win 45s. It was my custom, as a small bore competitor, to test new 22 ammo’s accuracy at 75 yards to get a true indication of how well it would shoot in a match.

Usually selecting a handful of cartridges then using a match rim gage will give improved performance with standard factory, non target, ammo, that needs to be checked.

Ed

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8 minutes ago, Recondo 101 said:

Shooting subs in a semi auto 22 requires the gun be set up for sub rounds, 99% of the time. Reducing the weight of and polishing the bolt recoil spring is one mod and polishing the bolt is also an almost always required mod. Sometimes the bolt needs to be lightened as well. Have built guns for subs since 1965 and have since had many brought to me for mod so they would function properly after being built by some well advertised sub gun builders. The gun is not a NFA item, the suppressor is. We also build suppressors for our own use under a F1 registration. Many of the full functional US built rifles for subsonic use as a semi auto 22 LR are based on the 10/22 because the feed system is very simple, without lifters, added action springs, etc.

<snip>

 

Ed

 

Ed,

First, a hearty welcome to the board. I look forward to your contributions given your skill set and experience. 

I have a question.

I do not disbelieve you, but I can not figure out how polishing the bolt recoil spring helps the cycling of the bolt

in a suppressed .22,  or any semi auto, for that matter.  This is a new concept for me.

Thanks in advance for satisfying my curiosity.

John

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19 minutes ago, Recondo 101 said:

Shooting subs in a semi auto 22 requires the gun be set up for sub rounds, 99% of the time. Reducing the weight of and polishing the bolt recoil spring is one mod and polishing the bolt is also an almost always required mod. Sometimes the bolt needs to be lightened as well. Have built guns for subs since 1965 and have since had many brought to me for mod so they would function properly after being built by some well advertised sub gun builders. The gun is not a NFA item, the suppressor is. We also build suppressors for our own use under a F1 registration. Many of the full functional US built rifles for subsonic use as a semi auto 22 LR are based on the 10/22 because the feed system is very simple, without lifters, added action springs, etc.

 

Regards the SSS 60 grain ammo, It was tested extensively when writing a magazine article about it and it’s function. To achieve good accuracy, by the ballistic computer runs, you should need a minimum of a 10.5 twist and probably could use an 8 twist barrel. The standard twist used by most 22LR barrel makers in the US is a 16 twist and the 16 is not fast enough to stabilize the 60 grain bullet length. We have also rebarreled guns speficly for the SSS cartridge. Reportedly the ATF has restricted the importing and sale of the SSS ammo. Apparently the ATF did not like that the SSS has many attributes of a rifle round in a handgun. Perhaps the ATF modified its stance, as some is seen now and again for sale.

 

Notes from the magazine article: The 60 grain bullet is a RN of standard design, .244 in diameter, length is .700 compared to .48 for a standard LR 40 gr RN bullet. The bullet has 2x the standard RN pull weight. The case and primer is made by Eley and is the case is the same length as a 22 Short or CB Cap case. Anguilla makes the bullet and powder. The powder is a grey flat ball at 1.5 grains, when fired it leaves a residue that appears to be a liquid.

End of article update: The 12 twist single shot I built did not work, twist was too slow.  A friend built a 10 twist 10/22 and it shot the 60s like Magic. 

 

Yesterday we tested the Win black copper plated, subsonic 45 grain RN. It is actually subsonic, makes round holes in paper at 75 yards and surprisingly accurate in the Remington 510 subsonic 16 twist test LR bolt gun. This 510 for subsonic use was built a year ago, replacing the standard long barrel with a old 16.5 inch cut off 510 barrel, with good rifling, that was laying on the shop’s barrel rack.  It has a target crown and QC fixture on the threaded muzzle. Shot at 75 yards it rendered a .25 inch group from a rest with the Win 45s. It was my custom, as a small bore competitor, to test new 22 ammo’s accuracy at 75 yards to get a true indication of how well it would shoot in a match.

Usually selecting a handful of cartridges then using a match rim gage will give improved performance with standard factory, non target, ammo, that needs to be checked.

Ed

Thanks for the info!

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11 minutes ago, Recondo 101 said:

Regards the SSS 60 grain ammo, It was tested extensively when writing a magazine article about it and it’s function. To achieve good accuracy, by the ballistic computer runs, you should need a minimum of a 10.5 twist and probably could use an 8 twist barrel. The standard twist used by most 22LR barrel makers in the US is a 16 twist and the 16 is not fast enough to stabilize the 60 grain bullet length. We have also rebarreled guns speficly for the SSS cartridge. Reportedly the ATF has restricted the importing and sale of the SSS ammo. Apparently the ATF did not like that the SSS has many attributes of a rifle round in a handgun. Perhaps the ATF modified its stance, as some is seen now and again for sale.

About 15yrs ago I bought an Aguilla marketed 1:9 twist 10/22 barrel. Since then I've shot a ton of that ammo with great result. I found that reducing the hammer spring rate a bit along with the bolt spring rate increased reliability considerably.

 

It dried up for quite a while just like all .22 ammo, but just in the last year it has become readily available again. I recently bought a brick for $55, which I still am not happy about because I used to get it for $34/brick, but at least it's consistently on the shelves again. I'm hoping that the price will come down a bit more, but I'm not holding my breath.

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3 minutes ago, Longhair said:

About 15yrs ago I bought an Aguilla marketed 1:9 twist 10/22 barrel. Since then I've shot a ton of that ammo with great result. I found that reducing the hammer spring rate a bit along with the bolt spring rate increased reliability considerably.

 

It dried up for quite a while just like all .22 ammo, but just in the last year it has become readily available again. I recently bought a brick for $55, which I still am not happy about because I used to get it for $34/brick, but at least it's consistently on the shelves again. I'm hoping that the price will come down a bit more, but I'm not holding my breath.

Have you checked SGAmmo ?

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2 minutes ago, newbe said:

Have you checked SGAmmo ?

Not recently, but I will before I buy any more. :tiphat:

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