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Posted (edited)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dui0uXu121Y

 

It was a long and good thread, I believe started by SpecOps. 

I figured I would post Cooper's take on it.  I pretty much agree with him,

unless the combat contact is so close bringinging the sidearm to your eye would but you at a tactical disadvantage. 

 

John

 

More classic Cooper; info beyond 1911's. 

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4c4jvN_T6Y0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jjk3j2bsxVw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=id6x3CP6SVE       <This is the video where Cooper describes his classic "Four Color Code Stages of Mental preparedness. 

IMHO it is not "old fashioned", but timeless.  I urge anyone unfamiliar with it to view it in its entirety, and for everyone who wants a refresher from "The Man" himself. 

Not every brilliant idea in firearm tactics, mindset, or weapons design is limited to the last 5 years. 

 

  I encourage everyone to consider, practice, and adopt this simple mindset, to help themselves and their family stay safe. 

Get all the information and training on situational awareness to go with Cooper's system. I wish now I had lead off the Topic with this video. 

With the advent of Ipods and smartphones, and an overall drop in situational awareness, IMO, Cooper's system is more important than ever. 

If you are ever having trouble maintaining Conditional Awareness, which equates with Cooper's, Condition Yellow, one of the best things to do, IMO, 

is to be friends with a good cop, who is willing to spend some time with you just walking around your city or town, and give you actual examples of what he or she sees that you may not, and can pull surprise quizzes on what was present in a scene you just passed by. This is a skill that must be trained to just like any other self defense skill. Once you get informed, teach your mate, or best friend (if it's not the cop)  and the two of you (or more) can do the same exercises in public. You can also do it by yourself.  I firmly believe that mental preparedness in our hectic world is something that people like us need to be very good at. 

 

Enjoy !    Discuss !             Have fun ! !

John

 

 

 

Edited by Retcop

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Bump.

 

Nobody wants to watch Jeff Cooper Videos and discuss them ?      :CONFUS12:

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I've done a bit of research over the years and sat around a camp fire talking with Col. Cooper. I've read a bunch of his books along with Ayoob, Nonte, Fairbarin and Jordan. It's all part of the chameleon mix for me. 

 

I've probably put more though, pun, along the lines to mental preparedness than the majority of shooters out there. I've looked at processes  prior to the shooting, the shooting and the after shooting.  I've addressed in my mind the necessities, the conditions and the philosophical/moral aspects of the endeavor.  I've worked hard to handle the up close and personal aspects of it and the long range more dispassionate yet no where less important requirements of shooting.  

 

I believe that Cooper does one of the more outstanding jobs of laying a base level for a shooter to start with and to address in his shooting infancy and as a resource to refer back to as the skills are honed and polished. Basics are the foundation of doing anything well and i SD the basics must be mastered. Many say better lucky than good. A thinking man makes his luck by being good. I stay out of casinos because no amount of luck will let you beat the odds forever.  Life is like that too. 

 

Greg

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3 hours ago, Retcop said:

Bump.

 

Nobody wants to watch Jeff Cooper Videos and discuss them ?      :CONFUS12:

I watched the first one, promise to watch the rest...Cooper is a legend.

First thing the said withing a minute that just hit home was just because 90% of people do it wrong is no reason you should too.

"We even use the sights when we cant see them".

 

Thanks for bumping, I should have some time this afternoon to catch up on these and maybe even go out and practice a few of his suggestions.

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Just now, wish2no said:

I watched the first one, promise to watch the rest...Cooper is a legend.

First thing the said withing a minute that just hit home was just because 90% of people do it wrong is no reason you should too.

"We even use the sights when we cant see them".

 

Thanks for bumping, I should have some time this afternoon to catch up on these and maybe even go out and practice a few of his suggestions.

 

It had actually gotten lost in the ozone. Could not find it in my ""Content I started"  yesterday, and had to use regular search this morning, when is when I bumped it. 

Then it disappeared again.  Have been having other glitches with board today.

I wrote Greg, maybe some body fixed it, because earlier I could not PM someone else either. 

 

Ther man is a plain talker but a deep thinker, and IMHO, he is one of those few in the firearms world who has the brain power and the common sense

to teach universal ideas that make it easy for the individual shooter to adjust to their own liking, without losing the essence of the original tactic or truism. 

 

An original thinker who helped shape our world. I wish there were more of him.  His humility and lack of marketing could provide a lesson for many in today's world. 

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I went ahead and copied a link to the post to my desktop.  So i wont have trouble locating it.

Appreciate your posting.

john

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9 hours ago, GLShooter said:

I've done a bit of research over the years and sat around a camp fire talking with Col. Cooper. I've read a bunch of his books along with Ayoob, Nonte, Fairbarin and Jordan. It's all part of the chameleon mix for me. 

 

I've probably put more though, pun, along the lines to mental preparedness than the majority of shooters out there. I've looked at processes  prior to the shooting, the shooting and the after shooting.  I've addressed in my mind the necessities, the conditions and the philosophical/moral aspects of the endeavor.  I've worked hard to handle the up close and personal aspects of it and the long range more dispassionate yet no where less important requirements of shooting.  

 

I believe that Cooper does one of the more outstanding jobs of laying a base level for a shooter to start with and to address in his shooting infancy and as a resource to refer back to as the skills are honed and polished. Basics are the foundation of doing anything well and i SD the basics must be mastered. Many say better lucky than good. A thinking man makes his luck by being good. I stay out of casinos because no amount of luck will let you beat the odds forever.  Life is like that too. 

 

Greg

 

After having to pull a Smith & Wesson K-38 Combat Masterpiece on a suspect loaded with 130gr ball ammo.......the amount of thought, research & mental masturbation was off the charts, then going to the M9 Beretta with 124gr ball ammo......it's always been about accuracy and putting the BB exactly where you want/need it.......and mind games and mental preparation is a huge part of knowing you have a anemic handgun with a meh at best projectile....and then having to cope with pulling the trigger...that in itself is a totally separate thread and dealing with the mental/emotional results...

 

Back when Cooper was in his prime the 45 with ball ammo was king, yep you could get some revolvers & some of the guys back then liked the big bore revolver it seemed geographical location played a part in that.

 

From what I've learned, sights and sightings systems have evolved & Cooper was able to critical think with his experience and thus ground breaking for the time....

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9 hours ago, Retcop said:

 

It had actually gotten lost in the ozone. Could not find it in my ""Content I started"  yesterday, and had to use regular search this morning, when is when I bumped it. 

Then it disappeared again.  Have been having other glitches with board today.

I wrote Greg, maybe some body fixed it, because earlier I could not PM someone else either. 

 

Ther man is a plain talker but a deep thinker, and IMHO, he is one of those few in the firearms world who has the brain power and the common sense

to teach universal ideas that make it easy for the individual shooter to adjust to their own liking, without losing the essence of the original tactic or truism. 

 

An original thinker who helped shape our world. I wish there were more of him.  His humility and lack of marketing could provide a lesson for many in today's world. 

 

 

You have people like Col Cooper in today's world, breaking new ground, coming up with better ways of doing things, improving a polishing & fine tuning decades old theory and procedures from lessons learned and with applying today's technology ....

 

Like how the 1911 was King in it's day, best trigger, best caliber, best handgun....now you have the 2011 in 9mm, that as more comes out about it you find that not only did they take the best of the 1911, but factored in today's bullet technology, materials and improvements and the more we learn, the more we experiment and refine and critical think, the more we go in circles...just like appendix carry it was very popular in the late 60's, 0's and early 80's if you were in the know and in that circle of gunfighters. Pat Rogers,Jim Cirillo and others in that circle/era all carried AIWB.

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9 hours ago, Rampy said:

 

 

You have people like Col Cooper in today's world, breaking new ground, coming up with better ways of doing things, improving a polishing & fine tuning decades old theory and procedures from lessons learned and with applying today's technology ....

 

Like how the 1911 was King in it's day, best trigger, best caliber, best handgun....now you have the 2011 in 9mm, that as more comes out about it you find that not only did they take the best of the 1911, but factored in today's bullet technology, materials and improvements and the more we learn, the more we experiment and refine and critical think, the more we go in circles...just like appendix carry it was very popular in the late 60's, 0's and early 80's if you were in the know and in that circle of gunfighters. Pat Rogers,Jim Cirillo and others in that circle/era all carried AIWB.

 

It is an evolution of sorts as to gear and technique.  Man just ca't ever settle for what is they want what if. I grew old while the greats of the pistolero world were cutting notches on their pistol grips. Thell Reed, Cooper and the Big Bear Leather Slap, Ray Chapman, Skeeter Skelton and Bill Jordan all contributed to my mind set as I grew up and started my shooting journey.  I missed McGivern by a few years unfortunately but have read his book years ago.  As I got older guys in the competitive world got my attention. I've shot side by side or in matches with the likes of Bill Wilson, Rob Leatham, Brian Enos,  Bill Rodgers, Mike Plaxico , Ross Seyfreid and John Shaw ad nausenum. Each gave me more perspective on handgun work.  I've blended what I saw and heard 1:1 with them and have been pretty happy with my level of development. Odd that you mentioned Jim Cirrillo. I do have a story about shooting with him at FLETC years ago but I'll save that one.

 

Technique is important and it is hard to change once you are in the rut of decades of repetition and you have to work twice as hard at it to "learn" . Sometimes I feel like the "new" is bette sometimes not. I've had instructors hammer at me about there "better" way when I was on a formalized range setting for my job and I just went along to get along with their great stuff as I was getting paid to "learn" and I always viewed it as my being a guest there. I never had any issues and they couldn't complain with the results. I would go later and practice the "new" method and might adapt to it or found it offered know advantage  to me.  

 

Gear for personal use for me has evolved little over the years. I started with AIWB Binachi Pistol Pouch and us it today. Even with my very skinny frame I can stick a 5" 1911 back there and not look like someone smuggling potatoes. I'll even carry a big Para there or my HP on occasion.  It works for me and no one's ever said a word about it until after I take my suite jacket off.  If I were in a colder climate I like an Jack Ass shoulder rig too if I am out and about but AZ doesn't work well for that..LOL

 

Greg

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, GLShooter said:

 

It is an evolution of sorts as to gear and technique.  Man just ca't ever settle for what is they want what if. I grew old while the greats of the pistolero world were cutting notches on their pistol grips. Thell Reed, Cooper and the Big Bear Leather Slap, Ray Chapman, Skeeter Skelton and Bill Jordan all contributed to my mind set as I grew up and started my shooting journey.  I missed McGivern by a few years unfortunately but have read his book years ago.  As I got older guys in the competitive world got my attention. I've shot side by side or in matches with the likes of Bill Wilson, Rob Leatham, Brian Enos,  Bill Rodgers, Mike Plaxico , Ross Seyfreid and John Shaw ad nausenum. Each gave me more perspective on handgun work.  I've blended what I saw and heard 1:1 with them and have been pretty happy with my level of development. Odd that you mentioned Jim Cirrillo. I do have a story about shooting with him at FLETC years ago but I'll save that one.

 

Technique is important and it is hard to change once you are in the rut of decades of repetition and you have to work twice as hard at it to "learn" . Sometimes I feel like the "new" is bette sometimes not. I've had instructors hammer at me about there "better" way when I was on a formalized range setting for my job and I just went along to get along with their great stuff as I was getting paid to "learn" and I always viewed it as my being a guest there. I never had any issues and they couldn't complain with the results. I would go later and practice the "new" method and might adapt to it or found it offered know advantage  to me.  

 

Gear for personal use for me has evolved little over the years. I started with AIWB Binachi Pistol Pouch and us it today. Even with my very skinny frame I can stick a 5" 1911 back there and not look like someone smuggling potatoes. I'll even carry a big Para there or my HP on occasion.  It works for me and no one's ever said a word about it until after I take my suite jacket off.  If I were in a colder climate I like an Jack Ass shoulder rig too if I am out and about but AZ doesn't work well for that..LOL

 

Greg

 

What a list of 1:1 names to swap ideas with and learn from (or teach)  !   You must not only be a lucky man, but a very talented and blessed man. 

Do I need to mention dedicated and hard working ?

Brother, you have some stories that need telling...

 

Great post, so I will pick up on just a point or two.. I posted about how many trainers I've had over the years, and how I would go with an open mind, 

commit myself to doing it the way this trainer teachers. I would then try "new" things out, keep what I liked and could use, and throw away what I did not like, or did not work for me.  Sounds like we agree on that dynamic; that individual technique or tactics is an amalgam of your unique total training, shooting, and personal and career experience, developed over time. As both a student and instructor it did not take long to understand that in shooting, there is often more than one right way a problem  could be solved in the world of self defense.  As in actual events, where two are never the same and a gun is always involved, one must remain fluid, think, and think for yourself, and use all of your senses.. The point for those who CCW is considering not getting your training from one source, or to not get too locked in to the teachings of one trainer,

or group of trainers with similar tactics.  Mix it up. Do your homework on trainers.  I find I can learn something about shooting from just about anyone, if I'm paying attention. 

 

It should be said for any young Officers here, or anyone considering a career in LE, that it is critical that your Departmental training includes training shooting and tactics together with the people you work with. Logistics are sometimes a problem, but what you see in a small/medium size Department (55-~ 75 sworn) that you start with people who you work the same shift and days with. That's a no brainer. If this is not happening, go to your training officer and/or SGT. etc and suggest it.  We had our FTO's sometimes train together, (in addition to FTO Training) which was great, but each still brings his individual talents with him. This is why every new officer had a minimum of 4 FTO's with the main FTO having the first and the last segments of the field training.  We even used the University Police to help cover our districts when we were doing refresher training on crowd control tactics in preparation for the "regular" University riots, and events like the Street Machine Nationals.  A lesson here is to train with your spouse, and your children depending on their age. At the least the spouse and children should know what you want them to do if  A B C D or XYZ happens in public

and at home.

 

In a Department of 75, or even up to 100 or slightly more, it is apparent that after a period of time where there are no large turnovers in Officers, a pattern emerges when bidding shifts and days off by seniority, the people working together will fall into a somewhat stable pattern. Firearms and Tactical Instructors should use this as a starting point to train people other than SRT in working together., and lesson that period of time where men know what the other is going to do without speaking, like the Military does with hand signals.  This training within the shift is never absolute, as training with others, including outside your Department is important as well. The lesson for CCW is to expose yourself to as many different techniques and tactics as possible, and make what works for you your own. 

 

Some advice I got early on from several excellent trainers and more experienced partners was that any man who said that his way was THE right way,  the only way, and spent good time hating on others ways (because they were not his), was someone at a minimum to take with a large grain of salt, and at most to simply get away from.  That was good advice, and set the stage for picking and choosing and understanding that some things would work well for me, and some would not. It does not necessarily mean the rejected parts bad, but that every shooter was an individual . This also paid off when I began instructing. 


I decided to have this come from an LEO/self defense perspective, because it is what I know best. Armed defense is also the thrust of Cooper's Readiness, but it has use beyond firearms or being able to avoid having to use them. I believe it has direct application to CCW and OC.  Others can add their own flavor and hopefully as many people as possible might pick up something they can use.   A positive mindset backed up by proven proficiency and always expecting the unexpected will serve you well. IMO,  Situational Awareness is a perishable skill and needs to be practiced and always employed.   So will the use of Col. Cooper's color coded stages of readiness IMO.  I've never had a new shooter or Officer absorb those simple concepts and not be the better for them. Besides being so simple, flowing and natural,  one of the advantages of Cooper's State's of Readiness is that if you are using  them, then you are situational aware.  If you are situationally aware, the color coding is being employed to help guide you ahead of any potential problem, or any problem presented,  in this case, when armed.  This mindset, once practiced, allows you to remain in Yellow without stress whenever you are out in public, or at any place or time.  It's a natural loop, and a great way for Situational Awareness to become a "mental and tactical muscle memory", which directly applies to CCW or OC in public. 

John 

 

Edited by Retcop
clarity

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Well said. Learning team work in any setting is good. The "only/bestest" way is not always that and you do have to sort through all of it to see if it fits your needs. I've been on ranges and been told not to wrap my finger around the front of the trigger guard, I've been told to not use a modified Weaver, I've been told not to roll the gun in my off side shooting I've also been told it takes 20 seconds to shoot six, reload and shoot six more. I just smile and do what they want and when it was time to write that qualification score down I used their methods to get the number.

 

I had a US Border Patrol instructor at FLETC screaming at me on how to shoot a piss ant 25 yard target left handed barricade about where the hell were my bullets going?  I just holstered up when the targets ere turned and he and I stroll ed down to the targets and he saw ten in the X-ring with a two straggler 10's. He was dumbfounded. I did tell him I guess I should tighten it up a bit. That guy was a dick until one of the other instructors took him aside and explained I had been shooting IHMSA for 5 years and the closest target was 50 meters and to leave me alone.

 

I could go on for pages on my instructors vs. how I instruct. I can truthfully say that even the worst occasionally would come up with a nugget that was usable. I can also say that stepping on a range as an RN drew a lot of scorn from the big bad Custody guys and the odd Warden right up until I cleaned the course over and over and over again. I've been in a SORT/SWAT entry stack in kill houses and had guys go off because I shot TOO FAST. I wlil admit I did tell the last batch to F-off and had our SORT Lt., a real ex-SEAL Team Six guy, explain to him that when it;s time to go on the trigger it was not time to sight see. 

 

Every proponent of SD has a point or two and everyone of them also must admit hey don't know it all. The worlds fluid and a guy better be able to go with the flow or if the need arises play salmon and swim upstream to get the job done. You obviously have a wealth of experience behind you to draw on with plenty of occurrences to illustrate your points on what does and does not work and how to optimize training for groups of varying individuals. I have lots of war stories and illustrations from the student and instructor viewpoints. I earned my spurs in competition that rolled over into my profession nicely and garnered me a great deal of respect post smoke clearing.  I'd have loved to sit through your activities and learned from you any day of the week.  Doing and teaching are two different worlds. Teaching someone  the way to be victorious in the given endeavor is truly an art and I suspect you were one of those.

 

Greg

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