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How is this helping anything

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I certainly would leave the rifle at hom, and I have been very against carrying a sidearm to "make a statement." 

 

But I have to be frank that when I see so many gun owners being so timid about fighting for their IIA Rights that they fear being Ppolitically incorrect,

the more I am understanding why these groups are popping up.

Let's be clear, these guys are not living in their Mom's basement, and carrying a sidearm to get into a confrontation with a cop so they can video tape it. 

Since there is no unified movement to support the IIA, and no one in the Political Establishment backing us up, what the Left is calling for is driving us underground, either by making us felons, or convincing people if we are NRA Members we should be declared a terrorist.

Somebody has to make the point to the deranged Left this is a Constitutional right, and while I am not ready to join them, I sure have a much better idea

of where they are coming from. When no one, not our representatives, not the media, not our friends, not ourselves are willing to stand up openly for our rights,

it makes what these guys did a lot easier to understand, IMO. If I could OC at a Farmer's market here, I don't think but a couple of aged hippies would object.

Never forget: These people have every right to be offended by OC, they have NO RIGHT to interfere with it.

 

(good to see you !)

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Before Virginia had shall issue concealed carry it was open carry only. There were actually very few limits on where you could open carry. The only real limitation on it was you could not have a loaded handgun in your vehicle while driving. I regularly open carried even though I was only 21 for a year or so before concealed carry became legal. 

 

Montana was much the same. Both open and permitless concealed carry were allowed. That has since changed and carrying in town now requires a permit but the hinterlands are still without permit. 

 

Illinois hasn't had open carry for a long time and only had concealed carry for 5 years. 

 

I wonder if the push toward concealed carry nationwide has actually harmed the 2A more than helped it. People who saw me open carry 30 years ago didn't freak out about it but open carry is the only way exactly who has a gun. . There are 17.25 million licences concealed carriers in the US. We outnumber the police by 17 times. I think John Q Public and Suzie Soccer Mom would be shocked if they knew exactly how often they were in close proximity to someone who is legally carrying concealed. By getting concealed carry everywhere we have helped to get guns being used in a law abiding way out of the public consciousness and left only the mass shooters to get the headlines and the public view.

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Consider the source?  Now ask yourself if you were at that market, would you be scared or upset?

 

The man I ride and have ridden motorcycles with most the last five years is a retired cop.  He refuses to carry mouse guns so pretty much now for five years he's open carried everywhere we've gone.  Its been one quite eye opening experience on this topic for me because not once has anyone said anything negative to him.  I mean the most comments are "Nice gun" or "What is it?".  Restaurants, stores, etc. nada not a thing.  Now that said, like me, he absolutely does not look like an outlaw biker.  Nor or is he making a big deal out of it.  What its shown me though is this wild public panic everyone talks about isn't prevalent.  Carrying a gun is like carrying a ball bat.  Nobody raises an eyeball if its a ball player but they do if its a ganger and everyone is not the same, one size fits all. 

 

As for demonstrations of any sort, I'm not a fan.  It doesn't sway my opinion on a topic and only seems to to those who these days are against about everything I believe in.  Every politician I have knows my name and have met the vast majority of them personally.  I'm not shy on my opinion on gun rights and garnering voting support for the same.  I believe this to be far more effective than standing on a street corner or trying to scare soccer mom.  I do believe we indeed as gun owners should desensitize folks to gun carry, however this should be at appropriate places and times.  You don't win support yelling in someone's face.  In fact, just the opposite and conservatives are about fed up with demonstrations of any sort.  With the media encouraging mass shootings by making the shooter famous, now is not the time for this type demonstrations.  It is the time to double down on political pressure.  Writing an email, letter, or making phone calls may not be as fun as a demonstration but it will have better results.

 

Tj

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As a retired LEO, I carry under LEOSA.  LEOSA restricts carry to concealed only (last time I looked), which doesn't disturb me in the least.  I see no reason to give up my tactical advantage of the bad guy not knowing if I'm armed or not.  That being said, I also have no problem with those who choose to open carry so long as they don't do it in an obnoxious manner (carrying long guns in a crowded venue for example), where they are likely to stampede the sheep into voting for stricter gun control.

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9 hours ago, MontanaLon said:

Before Virginia had shall issue concealed carry it was open carry only. There were actually very few limits on where you could open carry. The only real limitation on it was you could not have a loaded handgun in your vehicle while driving. I regularly open carried even though I was only 21 for a year or so before concealed carry became legal. 

 

Montana was much the same. Both open and permitless concealed carry were allowed. That has since changed and carrying in town now requires a permit but the hinterlands are still without permit. 

 

Illinois hasn't had open carry for a long time and only had concealed carry for 5 years. 

 

I wonder if the push toward concealed carry nationwide has actually harmed the 2A more than helped it. People who saw me open carry 30 years ago didn't freak out about it but open carry is the only way exactly who has a gun. . There are 17.25 million licences concealed carriers in the US. We outnumber the police by 17 times. I think John Q Public and Suzie Soccer Mom would be shocked if they knew exactly how often they were in close proximity to someone who is legally carrying concealed. By getting concealed carry everywhere we have helped to get guns being used in a law abiding way out of the public consciousness and left only the mass shooters to get the headlines and the public view.

 

I think you make a very good point about concealed carry replacing open carry (by law)  and by choice having a negative long term impact on the general public's perception of armed people having unintended negative effects.  We have gone from most people being used to open carry, or at least tolerant of it, to businesses asking uniformed Peace Officers to leave restaurants because their sidearms are making SJW's "uncomfortable". While I am unsure if the complaining parties had more problems with Police in general than the fact that they were armed.  I I give them the benefit of the doubt that they were sincerely distressed by the Officer's sidearms, the pathology becomes that such an irrational fear was catered to by the various business who catered to the totally unreasonable fear of the complaining patron(s). 

 

How did we get to this point in a few decades ?  The brilliant propaganda campaign of the anti-gun Leftists, their MSM, and the Alinsky style shaming of anyone who does not give in to Leftist ideology.  We've been debating for some time the pros and cons of appeasement  versus adopting a warrior's mindset. By warrior's mindset, I do not mean violence, but actually the opposite. We simply need to stop allowing us to be shamed for exercising our rights to keep and bear arms, especially after the bodies are still warm after some Evil and/or mentally ill person kills innocent people with a firearm, where the shock and emotions can be used against us in their minds. Yet at the same time the Political Class and the MSM ignores the daily body counts from our major liberal cities. 

Very interesting observation, ML !

John 

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I said this before.  There is a time and place for everything.  Walking through a crowd of soccer moms with an AK in hand is asinine.

As said earlier too that no two situations are the same, nor how the carrier is viewed by the general public the same by everyone.  Each person MUST ask themselves how will I be  perceived carrying?  And be prepared to answer yourself honestly.  

 

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4 hours ago, TomJefferson said:

Consider the source?  Now ask yourself if you were at that market, would you be scared or upset?

 

The man I ride and have ridden motorcycles with most the last five years is a retired cop.  He refuses to carry mouse guns so pretty much now for five years he's open carried everywhere we've gone.  Its been one quite eye opening experience on this topic for me because not once has anyone said anything negative to him.  I mean the most comments are "Nice gun" or "What is it?".  Restaurants, stores, etc. nada not a thing.  Now that said, like me, he absolutely does not look like an outlaw biker.  Nor or is he making a big deal out of it.  What its shown me though is this wild public panic everyone talks about isn't prevalent.  Carrying a gun is like carrying a ball bat.  Nobody raises an eyeball if its a ball player but they do if its a ganger and everyone is not the same, one size fits all. 

 

As for demonstrations of any sort, I'm not a fan.  It doesn't sway my opinion on a topic and only seems to to those who these days are against about everything I believe in.  Every politician I have knows my name and have met the vast majority of them personally.  I'm not shy on my opinion on gun rights and garnering voting support for the same.  I believe this to be far more effective than standing on a street corner or trying to scare soccer mom.  I do believe we indeed as gun owners should desensitize folks to gun carry, however this should be at appropriate places and times.  You don't win support yelling in someone's face.  In fact, just the opposite and conservatives are about fed up with demonstrations of any sort.  With the media encouraging mass shootings by making the shooter famous, now is not the time for this type demonstrations.  It is the time to double down on political pressure.  Writing an email, letter, or making phone calls may not be as fun as a demonstration but it will have better results.

 

Tj

 

Tj,

As I said in my post, I am not big on OC to "make a statement",  especially to mess with the cops to make a stupid Youtube video.  Showing up at a Farmer's Market with long guns slung on your back takes the brains of a door knob, especially when you are in an uber-liberal suburb of Washington D.C. which just recently gave "permission" to its residents to own handguns...

 

I am personally curious about one thing, though.  Does your retired cop friend still "look like a cop" ?  It's hard to explain, but it has happened to me before.  My wife and daughters tell me it is not only a "look" but the way the guy carries himself, how he speaks (and I don't mean using cop jargon) and to try and simplify, how he interacts with other people and his surroundings. 

It's an unconscious thing.  I still get asked once in a while if I am a cop, which is not necessarily a good or bad thing. It can make some situations better, and others worse. 

Observant people can sometimes pick up on it, especially other cops.  Maybe you could ask him if he ever gets asked if he is a cop. 

John

 

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4 hours ago, Retcop said:

 

Tj,

As I said in my post, I am not big on OC to "make a statement",  especially to mess with the cops to make a stupid Youtube video.  Showing up at a Farmer's Market with long guns slung on your back takes the brains of a door knob, especially when you are in an uber-liberal suburb of Washington D.C. which just recently gave "permission" to its residents to own handguns...

 

I am personally curious about one thing, though.  Does your retired cop friend still "look like a cop" ?  It's hard to explain, but it has happened to me before.  My wife and daughters tell me it is not only a "look" but the way the guy carries himself, how he speaks (and I don't mean using cop jargon) and to try and simplify, how he interacts with other people and his surroundings. 

It's an unconscious thing.  I still get asked once in a while if I am a cop, which is not necessarily a good or bad thing. It can make some situations better, and others worse. 

Observant people can sometimes pick up on it, especially other cops.  Maybe you could ask him if he ever gets asked if he is a cop. 

John

 

LOL, Oh yeah, both of us come off not biker.  My biker name is Mr. Bill.  Both of us are clean cut, no tatts, and confident.  One of our regular stops to have a cold drink and BS is a retired cops place where all the local cops stop and swap war stories. 

 

Its what I meant about not looking like you want a confrontation when open carrying.  Nobody thinks twice about a cowboy with a six gun but let hood rat carry the same, oh boy. 

 

BTW, Its the same when I get pulled over.  Its "How you doing" not "Did you know what you did".  In fact, last month I got pulled over on my bike and before we could even exchange "Hello", the officer said "I'm not stopping you to give you a ticket."  He stopped me to advise me my back tire was low on air.  Its one of the beef's I have with liberals that try to push that black kids looking like hood rats is a good thing.  Its not.  How someone treats a kid with baggie pants and bling is totally different than a kid with a collar shirt no matter what his color is. 

 

If these open carry protestors want people to accept open carry, the place, timing, and yes, their dress should be where it doesn't set off alarms.  These days dressing like you are going to war in a crowded place carrying a rifle, not good.  That said, the road I live on not dressed like you are Rambo, you could walk around all day with an AR and nobody would give it a second thought.  Same at the mall, oh boy.  Like you have pointed out, there's getting folks accustomed to guns then there's looking for a confrontation.   

 

Funny story!  Same pal walks into the Harley dealer here, everyone scatters.  Not because he had a gun but because he's picky as hell when he buys something and doesn't hesitate a second to tell them when somethings not to his liking.  If we stop at what we call the gravel pit where everyone smokes dope and drinks, man, you could hear a pin drop and they all grew up with him, know he's not a cop anymore. He sure entertaining to ride with.  Everyone likes him because there's no BS.  Whatever pops in his head comes out his mouth and like me, right is right, wrong is wrong.  Difference is he will tell them so if that's a cop, yeah, that's him.

 

Tj

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I understand the argument and MEDIA is mostly too BLAME . It's a one sided argument and by this audacious display they're TWITTERING too the Public !. As I imagine most don't social media worth a hoot !.

I DON'T agree that Making this statement helps but sometimes , Legal Law Abiding Citizens are simply going to SHOVE IT INTO THE OPPOSITIONS FACE !!!!!!!!. Personally I wouldn't be upset or afraid of that display of firepower and would almost have sympathy for any IDIOT whom tried some pelosi antics . ALMOST !!!.  

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I'm guilty of profiling , for that matter most people profile every day . ___A local hillbilly with a hogleg doesn't get a second glance in our county but if a gang banger looking person has a gun he will be watched closely . ___what people feel comfortable with is different from one place to the other .____As mentioned in an earlier comment a baseball bat doesn't look out of place at a ballpark but seriously how many of us would not be suspicious of someone who carried one to the grocery store and into restaurant? ___ To me open carry is like open breast feeding , it may be legal but why not just cover up and not make others uncomfortable ? ___ No I'm not for passing laws against open carry I just wish people would consider how our actions influence other voters .


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12 hours ago, Retcop said:

 

I think you make a very good point about concealed carry replacing open carry (by law)  and by choice having a negative long term impact on the general public's perception of armed people having unintended negative effects.  We have gone from most people being used to open carry, or at least tolerant of it, to businesses asking uniformed Peace Officers to leave restaurants because their sidearms are making SJW's "uncomfortable". While I am unsure if the complaining parties had more problems with Police in general than the fact that they were armed.  I I give them the benefit of the doubt that they were sincerely distressed by the Officer's sidearms, the pathology becomes that such an irrational fear was catered to by the various business who catered to the totally unreasonable fear of the complaining patron(s). 

 

How did we get to this point in a few decades ?  The brilliant propaganda campaign of the anti-gun Leftists, their MSM, and the Alinsky style shaming of anyone who does not give in to Leftist ideology.  We've been debating for some time the pros and cons of appeasement  versus adopting a warrior's mindset. By warrior's mindset, I do not mean violence, but actually the opposite. We simply need to stop allowing us to be shamed for exercising our rights to keep and bear arms, especially after the bodies are still warm after some Evil and/or mentally ill person kills innocent people with a firearm, where the shock and emotions can be used against us in their minds. Yet at the same time the Political Class and the MSM ignores the daily body counts from our major liberal cities. 

Very interesting observation, ML !

John 

I believe it really goes much deeper than that as well. It is why I view "common sense" gun laws and the people who push them with deep suspicion.

 

Take for instance the "gun free school" act. On the outside it seems like common sense but when you really get down to the heart of the matter no criminal has ever been stopped by any law restricting their ability to commit any crime. I graduated in 1987. Up until then seeing guns at school was no big thing. Kids and teachers both had them in gun racks in their pickups in the parking lot. Hunting was pretty popular in my neck of suburbia. In shop class we had students build muzzle loading rifles and I more than once a student brought their gun in to show the teachers who also were big into hunting or to fix an issue. We didn't hear about school shootings then. Not saying they didn't happen but they weren't even newsworthy. So now it is illegal to bring a gun to school and suddenly we have school shootings. Kind of a chicken or egg argument.

 

Red flag laws are just ripe for abuse. Much like SWATing has become a thing, if you don't like someone there is a way to hurt them and not expose yourself to any danger. How about if we start adding to the red flag laws something that states if you use the red flag law and it turns out to be bullshat, you spend a few years in prison to think about it? I could get behind that.

 

Ted Cruz has had words with the mayor of Chicago about gun control lately. I wish he would mop the floor with her in a debate. The push now in Illinois is for an AWB. The thing is, Illinois in general and Chicago in particular don't have a huge amount of crimes committed with "assault weapons". What they do have is a lot of shootings committed by people who should be in jail or shouldn't be in the country. Chicago is soft on crime to the point of subsidizing it. "Oh you can't afford your bail? No problem we will let you out on personal recognizance." They have let people out of jail who have been picked up within 48 hours for another crime after being let out because they couldn't afford bail. 

 

We should also note that they have about a 10% rate of clearance on murder cases. So 90% of people who have murdered someone are still running around loose in society. You know with odds like that, murder seems to be a pretty safe crime to commit in Chicago.

Edited by MontanaLon
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