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Varmint bullets for defense?

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What do you think about 52gr bthp bullets for defensive ammo? I have several k of them and not sure what to think.

On one hand, maybe they would fall apart too easy and not penetrate. On the other hand, they easily penetrate 1/2" mild steel. I know mild steel isn't flesh and bone, but still....

Any thoughts, or better yet, testing results?

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It all depends on your requirements in your situation.

This may help you decide. This guy says never, but it may work fine for your application. Your call.

 

 

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I sure as heck dont want to be shot with one!  I wouldnt hesitate using them for a moment if necessary.

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2 hours ago, Longhair said:

It all depends on your requirements in your situation.

This may help you decide. This guy says never, but it may work fine for your application. Your call.

 

 

Kinda hard to argue with that.

 

My only concern might be the effects after hitting bone.

 

Regardless, that's a lot more penetration than I would have expected.

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7 minutes ago, newbe said:

Kinda hard to argue with that.

 

My only concern might be the effects after hitting bone.

 

Regardless, that's a lot more penetration than I would have expected.

 

Kill someone and you have to move on to the next threat.  WOUND the threat and it will take 4 people out of the battle to care for the wounded person.

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As newbe said it's your call, it if your live and the lives of your loved ones you are protecting. 

However, if we ever need to call out the Militia, I would sure want you armed with something much more effected than varmint loads

if we are supposed to be watching each others backs.

 

Varmint loads have no place for me in self defense. They may work for some, that's fine. Show me the results under a variety of circumstances.

 

Lets talk about 5.56 and .308. I think their are many hunting rounds out there that may work very well on 2 legged varmints whacked out on meth. 

As long as they are designed for game like antelope, deer, pigs,etc, Ammo designed for any thin skinned game in North America. I think you have an advantage over the standard military rounds in 5.56. In fact, since I can no longer find cheap Speer Gold Dot in 5.56, it has been my intention to lay in some Whitetail style hunting ammo. 

But bullets with very thin jackets that break apart  so they don't make exit holes in fox or coyote, or to vaporize gophers, are totally inappropriate for self defense ammo, IMHO.  You won't see me using them unless I am up to my armpits in empty brass, and they are the last rounds I have. 

Sure, they may get the job done some of the time, but why lower your odds of success ?  The "problem" of over penetration has always been a molehill made into a mountain, IMHO. If you want to use these type of rounds because of the irrational fear of over-penetration, just don't. Just say no, You would be better off with XM 193. 

 

The emphasis should be on training so the likely hood of hitting your target under stress goes way up. I can tell you without reservation that anyone who is training for an armed  self defense encounter (or a large mob of "peaceful protesters")  and you are doing it on the traditional flat range, you are in for a large and disappointing experience if you are not interjecting real world scenarios and real world stress into your training regimen. If one of the few times you are shooting under stress is when the lead is flying at you, the knife is flashing, or the bats are swinging, you are gonna wished you did train under stress.  I love you guys, and I want to see you be victorious.

Mindset is 95% of surviving a deadly force encounter. 

 

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When it comes to 223/556, a defense round will be what ever I have in the gun at the time.  FJM, cool, 75 grain TAP, even better, 45 grain varmint, that will work too.  The availability of level 3 plates in the worst case scenario is going render center mass hits with any gun I have for SD/HD unless anyway if the bad guy is wearing them.  But that's cool too cause if I am not getting the reaction I want with center mass hits I'm going to the pelvis anyway for the mobility kill.  While lighter loads may not break the pelvis its going to tear all kinds of vessels up and cause massive bleeding.  If it cracks the pelvis they are going down and that gives me the ability over them to move.  I'm not counting on any round to be a single shot man stopper and the smaller the round the more likely I am to hit them multiple times.

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2 hours ago, wish2no said:

I sure as heck dont want to be shot with one!  I wouldnt hesitate using them for a moment if necessary.

 

That's the key. Although I don't have scientific evidence, I don't think any of these rounds is going to do well against a human sternum. 

 

The idea is to stop the threat as quickly as possible.  Bullets stop threats by two different mechanisms. 

The first is a Central Nervous System (CNS)  shot. This is ether a shot to the brain placed so that it instantly turns the lights off. A CNS  can also hit the spinal column high enough up where it makes the bad guy unable to function.

 

The other mechanism is blood loss. Hopefully the most rapid blood loss possible. As the person losses blood blood pressure drops, and the brain no longer receives the oxygen it needs to function, so the threat ceases.  With so many options available, I would council against using varmint loads on two legged threats, 

I can say for sure that I don't want to get shot with anything, even a .22. If I can find it, I will try posting the dash cam video of a Trooper shot between his body armor, under the armpit, with a .22 LR pistol. The bullet punctured one of the main arteries to the heart, and we watch the Trooper wind down in a matter of seconds as the internal blood loss kills him. It is horrifying to watch. The idea here is that any round may stop a threat quickly given a little luck and happenstance, but why limit yourself to something that might work, when advancement in bullet design have maximized the chances of good penetration, expansion, and rapid blood loss, which equals ending the threat in the shortest amount of time possible.   

 

Our Armed Forces have complained for years, especially with small stature undernourished enemies with shallow chest cavities that the 5.56 rounds were simply making ice pick sized holes through the enemy. Without a CNS shot or something like a direct hit to the heart or associated blood vessels, the bad guys were not being taken out of the fight, and were needing the application of several rounds. The need to use several rounds not only negates the advantage of 5.56 ammo being light weight as compared to 7.62 X 51, but it also takes more time to put an enemy fighter down, which exposes our guys to additional threat since it is taking not only more rounds, but more time per bad guy. Given these body types, the Military ammo did not have a chance to start tumbling and/or fragmenting, which is what made the 5.56 a good round in war out to certain distances. To add insult to injury, the Military was going to shorter and shorter barrels.  This meant that at the muzzle the bullets out of these short barrel carbines did not have the velocity they needed to do things like tumble or break off at the cannalure, like they were designed to due.

The Marines hung onto their 20 inch long "rifles" far longer than any other branch of the Service, and they did so with good reason. Those 20"inch barrels were the only ones generating the velocities to get the 5.56 round to perform as it was designed. It is a very good thing that we civilians have the option in bullets with open tips, soft points, or hollowpoints designed with outstanding terminal ballistics. Varmint loads are simply not the best choice for human bad guys. 

 

BTW: For centuries, a rifle with a 20" barrel was considered a carbine, long after the change to modern powders and metallic cartridges.

I understand that sometimes PDW sized packages are called for, but I thing we do our Warriors a disservice by supplying them with short barreled carbines wherein it is impossible to generate the specified velocities for effective terminal ballistics,  

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As long as they are designed for game like antelope, deer, pigs,etc, Ammo designed for any thin skinned game in North America.


Mindset is 95% of surviving a deadly force encounter. 
 


I believe it that SD/HD ammo should be something you can actually get more of, to replace what you shot while training. I don’t train with all defense ammo, but I always shoot some to make sure; 1) it feeds reliably, 2) I’m used to it... (it’s partly why I like Winchester T&D).

So, for a home defense AR, would you use this?

e153302c70896ea6ec38ec0dca89a553.jpg

I can actually find some of this. My son pulled the trigger 4 times and put four deer on the ground when we used .223 “in a pinch” a couple years ago. It’s my only experience with .223 and live game (not including whistle pigs), but it makes me feel like it might be ok for 2-legged varmints.


John

“Remember, no matter where you go, there you are,” —Buckaroo Banzai

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Your point about be able to replace it is a very good one. 

As far as that ammo, I can't give it my complete endorsement, since it was not designed as personal protection ammo.

I would read every review I can find on it, and hopefully find some where they did some testing on it.

You could try talking to someone at Winchester ammo endneering.'

The other thing I would do is compare the price of that ammo to the price of something like Speer Gold Dot LE self protection ammo.

If the price was not huge, I would get the Gold Dot, Hornady, whatever. 

 

But yes that was more of what I had in mind than varmint ammo.  The LC  X193 is not a bad self defense ammo if you are shooting it out of a long enough barrel. 

How much more does a dedicated self defense .223 ammo cost than that Deer Season ? 

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17 hours ago, wish2no said:

WOUND the threat and it will take 4 people out of the battle to care for the wounded person.

Unless they're ANTIFA and don't give a shite about their wounded.

 

Terry

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I have a friend who always laughed at me when I told him my AR was a fighting rifle but my .308 was a BATTLE rifle.  Good ammo in either make them both great, trouble is, it is hard to switch ammo in the field for any given type of confrontation.  At home my AR magazine is loaded with one 62gr green tip followed by two 62gr HPBT, rinse repeat.

 

Same with the shotgun, #6 shot followed by buckshot followed by a slug, rinse repeat.  I dont want to get hit with any of it, but it is diverse enough to take care of multiple situations.  For self defense, EXCEPT for a pistol, but rifles I almost always load with multiple types of rounds.  Maybe if one doset work the next might.  "Aint-not gunna feel good if you get hit with any of it.

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21 hours ago, redbarron06 said:

When it comes to 223/556, a defense round will be what ever I have in the gun at the time.  FJM, cool, 75 grain TAP, even better, 45 grain varmint, that will work too.  The availability of level 3 plates in the worst case scenario is going render center mass hits with any gun I have for SD/HD unless anyway if the bad guy is wearing them.  But that's cool too cause if I am not getting the reaction I want with center mass hits I'm going to the pelvis anyway for the mobility kill.  While lighter loads may not break the pelvis its going to tear all kinds of vessels up and cause massive bleeding.  If it cracks the pelvis they are going down and that gives me the ability over them to move.  I'm not counting on any round to be a single shot man stopper and the smaller the round the more likely I am to hit them multiple times.

 

Good points about always having bad guy body armor in your mind when in any defensive situation. I'd still classify it as rare, but it is growing.

Depending on the drill and the weapon I will either do 2 to chest and two to pelvis, or two to chest and two to head. Must keep options open. 

Most training sessions,  more than 4 rounds will be sent unless total crumble achieved and directly observed from cover, again depending on totality of circumstances. 

If bad guys plentiful and full mags not, could be that 1 to chest and 1 to pelvis is way to go. There are guys who love 2 to chest 1 to head.  I'm not a bad CBQ rifle or pistol shot, but I wonder if anyone has dealt with targets with moving heads, or done the drills with laser on the big screen.  The classic "bad guy with hostage" is a lot easier than bad guy running around like he's high on Meth (imagine that) is a lot harder than it looks. (For this man, anyway.) All I'm saying if I am not getting response from chest hits, I am much more likely to go straight to pelvis unless target is offering a reasonable head shot.   Shoot those moving target's, gentlemen. Flat range can get you killed. 

 

Went to the PD the other day, and got to talk to one of my old hunting buddies who is now Chief.  Been getting notices and reading on body armor. When they do run across 

body armor, the majority of it is either very used/out of date or Level IIA of very low quality

There is the tiny % who are really armoring up. Steel plates are regularly home made, or manufactured from poor materials. and best reason for .308 with proper ammo. Same for ceramics  expensive and does not do well with multiple hits short  as steel or synthetics. Not big on body armor you have to be careful you don't drop the plates... The synthetics are the way to go, thin stuff that works super expensive, not gonna find a lot of bad guys/psycho active shooters armored up with effective materials.  That said, after initial rounds downrange and bad guy not down, immediately transition to alternate POA. Remember, if you don't train to it, it's not gonna happen when you are loading your drawers. Don't kid yourself. There are ways to have body silhouettes fall or not fall with first rounds, so you mix it up. I have found best way without expensive gear is to have friend help with long thin rope. This is also a good drill to run with multiple targets, some armored, some not. Makes you fine tune which target the greatest threat, multiple combinations that are different from ASSuming each guy is getting good hits, not armored . Something I see all the time is guys assuming if the hits are made on a target the threat is over. Does not always happen in real world, including the possibility that for some reason you are not getting good hits, and there is no armor. Optic could be foo, you may be off, if you are a dick, the barrel could be lose.  Always expect the unexpected.

 

Can't remember the exact name of this polyethylene stuff that is super light and can take multiple level III hits. Steel is just too heavy unless you are in place or young and strong. I used to wear steel, never again. I've already slowed down enough, thank you.

I never worry about not having body armor. Hell, it would be nice, but if you are not wearing it 24/7.....speed, silence and maximum violence can usually take care of the need for body armor. If we go to war, yes I will be at disadvantage. Sucks to be me without $$$ tied up in armor and helmet. 

 

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6 hours ago, specops56 said:

Unless they're ANTIFA and don't give a shite about their wounded.

 

Terry

I think this is spot on. 

The leaders are being trained by Marxist hard asses. 

 

Color me very surprised if the people they are giving weapons training are not being trained in evacuating wounded and emergency field bleeding control, airways etc.

The wounded man buns will be left where they fall.  More likely the pros will be coming in behind giving them one to head with suppressed sidearm, than given medical care by their own. No one wants them to ID the spot in the desert run by Comey and Clapper's men where they trained...   :nt:

Dead men can't talk, much. 

 

No, I've not jumped off the tinfoil cliff. Having said that, circumstances make it foolish Imo, to totally disregard that the world-wide marxist Revolution has not begun their USA Operation code name "White Privilege".  Things will become more clear as election approaches, and that includes unusual period of calm before election.  I am much more concerned about Trump win post election than I am with what may happen pre-elction. It all depends on the possibility if this is full press Commie time, and what strategy they decide on.  It Trump landslide look inevitable and they are not satisfied with fraud operation, strategy may be to have as much anarchy just prior to and the day of election in order to get election impossible to certify because so many were denied ability to vote.  Wife and I have pretty good stock of food and water, and I am mostly happy with my SD supplies. More .308 would be nice, as would more 8mm Mauser.  Remember, this is not tinfoil, it is being prepared for any contingency. There IS a small possibility this is full bore action to destroy election and subvert Republic through violence.  Not highly probable IMO, but possible. Definitely possible. Look at the amount of logistics and organization it has taken to keep "protesters" together all this time. Usually, most would have gotten bored and gone home long before now. 

 

I am more concerned by what the Supreme Court did and did not do on Monday. The Republican effort to get Conservative Federal judges appointed from the bottom to the Supremes has been a decades long failure.  Next option is to stop working with the abnormal supremacy of the Court, and we now must shift gears and try and put Supremes back in to their Constitutional roles. Which is like trying to get toothpaste back in the tube.  Highly recommend Mark Levin's    Men in Black  for great read on how the High Court and other Federal Courts have way overstepped their Constitutional powers. I agree with description of SCOTUS action and inaction on Monday,  as the American Conservative movements Waterloo.

The puzzle pieces keep adding up that we are in the middle of some type of coordinated effort.  Way too many coincidences that come along with

Covid 19 release and WHO cover up for ALL of this to be happenstance.  My suggestion is to be prepared for a longer term period of self reliance than you may be prepared for.  Trump wins ?  This time they will not be kneeling in the streets crying. Their handlers will make sure of that. 

And now the North Koreans are testing conventional war on the Peninsula for China, for another front to keep America's attention on. 

Edited by Retcop
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4 hours ago, Retcop said:

Dead men can't talk, much. 

But they can vote!

 

Terry

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