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Ar pistol Worth it?


claurio21
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7 hours ago, Retcop said:

 

THIS.

When I see very short 5.56 or PCC's with barrels just barely longer than a sidearm, I start wondering what the point is.  

But like whiteGTdroptop said, if you want it just for fun, don't let the cons stop you.

"Shoot what you like and like what you shoot", I always say 

 

Really John it may be that handguns require a whole bunch of work to be fast and proficient with and the pistols/PCC's have a much quicker learning curve.  IO'm waiting on my new PCC BCG that will be here Saturday and looking long and hard at the highest pressure loads aI can run through it. I suspect with the chamber design +P+ loading will be perfectly fine in it. I have a grundle of 147's and for terminal performance on big bipeds they may well be the ticket.  If I were to take it hinting for rabbits etc. then it will get fed some 115 JHP's loaded to the hilt. 

 

Greg

 

In the dark of the night in my house  I'll still be seen naked as a jay bird with a handgun of 45/357 flavor being put to use.  Whole new meaning inthe "flash" sight picture.

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4 minutes ago, GLShooter said:

 

Really John it may be that handguns require a whole bunch of work to be fast and proficient with and the pistols/PCC's have a much quicker learning curve.  IO'm waiting on my new PCC BCG that will be here Saturday and looking long and hard at the highest pressure loads aI can run through it. I suspect with the chamber design +P+ loading will be perfectly fine in it. I have a grundle of 147's and for terminal performance on big bipeds they may well be the ticket.  If I were to take it hinting for rabbits etc. then it will get fed some 115 JHP's loaded to the hilt. 

 

Greg

 

In the dark of the night in my house  I'll still be seen naked as a jay bird with a handgun of 45/357 flavor being put to use.  Whole new meaning inthe "flash" sight picture.

 

I fully concede that the third point of contact and the ease of using a red dot sight, or the presence of a longer sight radius, along with  increased velocities are advantages , but boil down to training and personal preference.  I was talking about some PCC's I have seen that have the same barrel lenghts as a sidearm, or just and inch or so longer. The velocity gains are going to be minimal, and for bumps in the night I prefer a sidearm. It boils down to personal preference. I don't know if you noticed, but I asked a member who is an owner a CZ Scorpion to please do a review since they are so scarce where i am at, so I am not closed to the idea. Long hair mentioned a perfectly good reason for an AR pistol, and that is the difference in the carry laws in most States between a pistol and a long gun with access to it in the passenger compartment of a mobile conveyance. However, I would still council the use of premium defensive ammo in these close to sidearm length barrels in 5.56 AR pistols, because at the end of these short barrels the 5.56 FMJ's are not close to reaching the minimum velocities for a chance at bullet fragmentation or tumbling. In fact, this is one place I would prefer a PCC (like the Scorpion which, IIRC has a 7.5 or 8 inch barrel and will put the plus into your +P+ 9mm rounds.)

 

When I go over scenarios in my mind about a defensive weapon in a vehicle, I have come to the conclusion to use my sidearm, which is carried with 2 additional 13 round magazines and a 22 round magazine.  But my thinking is that the sidearm is to get me to my popped trunk, where my 16 " AR with 2 30 round magazines, and a magazine carrier with 8 mags lays. In all candor, I don't believe you will find an AR in my trunk where the population density would promote the presence of large angry crowds blocking the streets. 

 

With your PCC, if you have the magazines in the car, you have the advantage in getting way off the dime forthwith, as long as you have the ammo. My tactic I would say is inferior in that I will have to be exposed to one degree or another at the rear of the vehicle for a short amount of time. Otherwize the 62 rounds a sidearm, and a 2 ton vehicle will have to get to either out of danger. The disadvantage I see with the PCC (which is not as big of storing the AR in the trunk) would be a bit less mobility inside the vehicle. 

 

I think I've already covered the pros and cons for home defense between PCC's and sidearms. I simply prefer to have one hand available when needed, and am much more comfy being able to prevent a wrestling match over my sidearm then I am over a "long gun". Especially a rifle caliber like the 5.56 with a tiny barrel and no suppressor. Literally a blast at the range, arousal producing at sundown, but not my cup of tea for home defense.  

 

If anyone believes I have been rambling, I adamantly maintain I have not. It is this if this then WHAT type of scenario building that we should all go thru regularly as part of our self training to be more prepared for anything that may happen, with whatever weapon we have chosen for ourselves. 

It's great when you can bounce things off of other guys who have given such things some thought, or have had the training or experience to understand how important it is to work these things out ahead of time.  

 

As I have said innumerable times on these pages, the choice of a self defense weapon is an extremely personal choice, and I am actually chagrined that my personal opinion was taken as criticism. "Shoot what you like, and like what you shoot. 

I may venture into that territory again when I say the weapons that really have me scratching my head 

are the super short AR pistols in calibers like 5.56. Unless it is a range toy, or your goal burning folks at the stake, I do have a hard time seeing such an implement as a great choice for home defense. If you are using a suppressor with subsonic ammo, it makes a bit more sense, especially if you are using defensive ammo like a Gold Dot, which is not going to be subsonic. I'm sure handloaders could come up with the perfect round for the short barreled  suppressed 5.56. 

It's your butt on the line, and it is your choice. We can learn so much though, by exchanging our thoughts, tactical brain pickings, personal preferences, and the reasons why. 

 

John

 

let's hear from some other guys too. plans you have set up with partner, kids, home, in public, or in car.  Are you carrying full time. We can all learn a lot. I hope I never stop learning. 

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No advantage in an inch or two on the short muzzle things.  Like I said to me it just down to the hit frequency for lots of guys thanks to the presence or lack of training.  I've got a 10 1/2" M16 that is one hose and go machine but a good long burst indoors would be hard to deal with on the phone right afterwards..LOL  It'll shoot MOA with little difficulty but that would not be my choice in most SD scenarios..  I would much prefer it over a PCC at 50+ yards . 

 

I did some training in armed escort stuff and in the real world I was tasked as a counter-sniper in our planning.  The vast majority of it was centered around getting off the X. That was quite the training BTW..LOL  I maintain that it takes a mighty big object/crowd to stop a car at full throttle. I would much prefer to just add distance to the equation and not climb out and be digging in the trunk. A rifle sighted Benelli in the back seat loaded with slugs would be a viable alternative in the car if you simply must get down and engage. Most of us don't crusie with a SG in the back and I don't cruise with an AR in the trunk either.

 

Lots of ideas and scenario plotting goes into this question. No one is totally right and no one is totally wrong. Honest assessment and tested skill sets come into play here when you have to go see the elephant.

 

Greg

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1 hour ago, GLShooter said:

No advantage in an inch or two on the short muzzle things.  Like I said to me it just down to the hit frequency for lots of guys thanks to the presence or lack of training.  I've got a 10 1/2" M16 that is one hose and go machine but a good long burst indoors would be hard to deal with on the phone right afterwards..LOL  It'll shoot MOA with little difficulty but that would not be my choice in most SD scenarios..  I would much prefer it over a PCC at 50+ yards . 

 

I did some training in armed escort stuff and in the real world I was tasked as a counter-sniper in our planning.  The vast majority of it was centered around getting off the X. That was quite the training BTW..LOL  I maintain that it takes a mighty big object/crowd to stop a car at full throttle. I would much prefer to just add distance to the equation and not climb out and be digging in the trunk. A rifle sighted Benelli in the back seat loaded with slugs would be a viable alternative in the car if you simply must get down and engage. Most of us don't crusie with a SG in the back and I don't cruise with an AR in the trunk either.

 

Lots of ideas and scenario plotting goes into this question. No one is totally right and no one is totally wrong. Honest assessment and tested skill sets come into play here when you have to go see the elephant.

 

Greg

Off the X is exactly why I added that the long gun would not be riding in the trunk. :laugh:

If i'm in a vehicle and surrounded by a mob and the vehicle still goes, my primary concern will be building up speed and aiming for the path of least resistance. 

 

If we want to talk real world, for most of the urban violence I have been seeing from the fact their are cameras everywhere, it seems fairly simple to avoid such crowds, but much may have to do with decisions you made earlier in life. 

I knew a long time ago that I did not want to live anywhere near an urban center, so I don't. 

The only time I would pass through an urban center was to see the Kids near Nashville. Now they are an hour Northeast from Nashville, and it is one of those places where you can't get there from here, without at least an hour on mountainous 2 lane highways. Being retired, I can go where I please and avoid the rest. If I did live in an urban area, I would move. 

Right or wrong, I have come to the conclusion that the odds of a mob, or a group bent on spreading terror by assaulting my castle in my mostly rural community are very, very, low. I do have scenarios worked out, just in case, but other considerations make bugging in pretty much the conclusion. I am much more concerned about the New Madrid Fault tearing off another big one and it's aftermath than I am of the inevitable confrontation between a marxist Government, and the apparently few Americans who are remaining that actually give a damn.  

I will always prefer a sidearm for inside my castle for the bump in the night, and a 16" minimum for the perimeter. There are always the 7.62 X51 rifles for when they are appropriate, 8mm Mauser for special applications (cross your fingers), and slugs and 00 when they are called for. 

I am satisfied with my ammo supplies, and hopefully men like you can be of help if things go on for many years, but hopefully we would be buying it by the boat or planeload if that happens. That is probably my biggest hole is not having a rifle that shoots commie ammo. That's Pretty dumb. 

No one to blame but myself. Maybe someone would like to sell one that functions, shoots straight, and can do minute of bad guy at 100 yards ?    

 

My things are undoubtedly pretty sparse compared to most of the members here, but everything was well thought out, and each has its purpose. I'm comfy, but the disease is you always want more, the love of firearms is in our blood.  Once again, it boils down to preference. if I really thought I needed a dozen AR's I would have them. I have frequent breakage parts for those I have, but admittedly not for everything. I am working on correcting that. 

 

It all boils down to what makes you happy, given your personal preferences. Fantastic armories are just that, fantastic, but so is training, mindset, tactics, performing under stress, and very good proficiency with a core of diverse weapons you have.  If I could wave my Kingly staff and grant one thing for my Tribe, it would be that they include more training under stress as part of their regimen. There is a reason that the Marxists will be looking to defang Veterans and cops early on, IF it does come to that. Indications seem to be accumulating that Pelosi and crew have once again overplayed their hand. This actually concerns me. To me it means that will have to go even farther to the Left to get the results they want. They will not easily give up the gains they have made. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

I have a 10.5 inch barrel 5.56mm pistol and I don't regret it a bit.  It is every bit as accurate as a 16" (or 14.5") barrel for practical self-defense distances but the extra 5.5" shaved off make it far more maneuverable than the numbers will suggest.  It is much easier to carry in a car (tennis racquet case?), can fit through doorways full length, won't hit ceilings or doorjambs if carried at high ready, etc etc.  

 

My follows me around a lot.

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For me, those extra points of contact are a big help with accuracy- and follow-up shots. I have no complaints about how I shoot my G30s (even though Greg thinks I’m an unpatriotic Austrian fan-boy :yukyuk: for having it) but an AR pistol that lets me spread my hands out a bit between the pistol grip and hand-guard, plus the buffer tube or pistol brace on my forearm, adds a good bit of stability and recoil mitigation.

 

I’m pretty happy with my scores, for example, at a Zombie with any of my Glocks (my daughter-in-law hogs the Norinco 1911 Combat Commander clone, so I rarely get to shoot it)- happy enough that I feel like I could stand a fighting chance of defending myself and my family. But when I switch to my PCC (9mm) or an AR pistol, my score invariably goes down (fewer penalty points and more “zeros”). I just shoot the longer weapon better.

 

For me, the jury is still out on a laser sight. My first self defense handgun (promise not to laugh) was an S&W Bodyguard .380 with a built-in laser. I still have it, but I rarely shoot it. I have shot it “from the hip” with the laser and it hits quite well that way. It is also the gun that began to teach me to shoot with both eyes open, since the laser confirmed the iron sights and alignment with my dominant eye. Not to mention my LEO friends (the police captain and others) have told me that there is good research that says when a laser shows up, the need to even pull the trigger is greatly reduced and leads to a greater number of surrenders or retreats on the part of the aggressor.

 

I don’t yet have- and so have not trained or practiced with -a weapon-mounted light.

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Sounds like you care getting some good balance in your firearms usage. A bit of exposure and applied practice goes a long long way. 

 

I don't know about lasers causing a guy to give it up but I didn't deal with that in my job. We didn't use them in the prison. We did have some weapons lights but only on long guns.  

 

I never brought up patriotism. That was someone else..lol. I took the GLOCK over the SIG when doing my SORT/SWAT work in my career because I preferred the consistent trigger. I never had a problem cleaning my qualification with the BOP and Armed Escort that I taught. I have two CZ 204's that I can shoot alongside every American made bolt gun I have. My Remington 204 is good too but gets shaded by the other two by a consistent 0.1. 

 

Greg

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