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So as I recently posted I got a new ar15 noveske .556 13.5 inch key mod rail and a 16 inch barrel I know what foregrip and light im getting and it came with backup iron sights a magpul stock magpul grip raptor charging handle and I just mounted 2 bcm rail sections on it so now it's pretty much down to choice of optic I'm looking at either a eotech with a magnifier looked at a few aimpoints and a couple elcans im not fully set on those so if you wanna throw some extra opinions in id love to hear them I'll mainly use this rifle as my go to SHTF durable rugged and reliable im not gonna be running competitions or nothing like that the only thing I don't want is a actual scope I did look at a few like I think one is the vortex razor but I just don't think I'll be trying to reach out that far I know the rifle is fully capable just not something I'll really be doing 2df0c07adb4e811726c306bd205cbbd7.jpg

 

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I think u would like the eotech/magnifier combo. I have a similar setup except it’s cheaper on my DPMS. I have a vortex red dot/ primary arms 3x magnifier on a flip to side mount and really like it.

Sean


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The Aimpoint PRO is pretty good kit, for a number of reasons, with a three year battery life.

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 I would not waste the money on Eotech or Aimpoint. For 100 bucks or under you can get a TRS25. Its hard to beat and does a darn good job. You don't get your moneys worth on the high end. Its a huge diminishing returns after about 150 bucks. All the BS on comparing a Caddy to a Chevelle I will take the Chevelle any day over the Caddy and no one really wants a used Caddy and you can not find a cheap Chevelle. All you get for your money is a lot of hype and little in the way of real value.

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 I would not waste the money on Eotech or Aimpoint. For 100 bucks or under you can get a TRS25. Its hard to beat and does a darn good job. You don't get your moneys worth on the high end. Its a huge diminishing returns after about 150 bucks. All the BS on comparing a Caddy to a Chevelle I will take the Chevelle any day over the Caddy and no one really wants a used Caddy and you can not find a cheap Chevelle. All you get for your money is a lot of hype and little in the way of real value.
Well, ok. And I'm not exactly disagreeing, only I kind of am.

So, you used to be able to get a Holosun 403R for not that much more than a TRS-25 (relative to an Aimpoint or Eotech, anyway) which is probably the best Aimpoint T2 clone wannabe' out there. It has the simple dial control, no obnoxious little rubber buttons and as I understand it, significantly improved durability and battery life. 36f03a6ed741c205de9cf93d1bed0137.jpg

On the flip side, the Fieldsport micro red dot is functionally the same as a TRS-25 and costs less. This setup was about $45 when I bought it, including the quick release mount. 8722d5dafb87e42f9507e9c5d63ecc0d.jpg

And since these are all made in China, to some degree we're really arguing Made in China vs Not Made in China. Remember, both Chevelle's and Cadillac's are made in America. Would you buy a Chevelle if it was made in China? I have a friend who won't carry or take seriously any pistol which hasn't seen widespread, sustained use by military or police, or both, for at least a decade. By the same token, one might simply not take seriously any optic not fielded by military or police and proven in combat actions. Like an Aimpoint or an Eotech. 118cdd0ddd6f3d98e546323af753ac10.jpg

Look. I get it. It's a lot of money for something that looks about the same and does about the same job. Some people buy $25 red dots, some people buy $600 red dots. Some people own both. I don't think it's worth accruing debt to own a "combat-proven" red dot, but everyone's threshhold of what makes sense is going to be different. I sometimes see used Aimpoints for about $300. That seems pretty reasonable to me for a "fighting gun"and I've never had one disappoint me. f2c7bd08467fe532e86aedfec200b8c6.jpg

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Well, ok. And I'm not exactly disagreeing, only I kind of am.

So, you used to be able to get a Holosun 403R for not that much more than a TRS-25 (relative to an Aimpoint or Eotech, anyway) which is probably the best Aimpoint T2 clone wannabe' out there. It has the simple dial control, no obnoxious little rubber buttons and as I understand it, significantly improved durability and battery life. 36f03a6ed741c205de9cf93d1bed0137.jpg

On the flip side, the Fieldsport micro red dot is functionally the same as a TRS-25 and costs less. This setup was about $45 when I bought it, including the quick release mount. 8722d5dafb87e42f9507e9c5d63ecc0d.jpg

And since these are all made in China, to some degree we're really arguing Made in China vs Not Made in China. Remember, both Chevelle's and Cadillac's are made in America. Would you buy a Chevelle if it was made in China? I have a friend who won't carry or take seriously any pistol which hasn't seen widespread, sustained use by military or police, or both, for at least a decade. By the same token, one might simply not take seriously any optic not fielded by military or police and proven in combat actions. Like an Aimpoint or an Eotech. 118cdd0ddd6f3d98e546323af753ac10.jpg

Look. I get it. It's a lot of money for something that looks about the same and does about the same job. Some people buy $25 red dots, some people buy $600 red dots. Some people own both. I don't think it's worth accruing debt to own a "combat-proven" red dot, but everyone's threshhold of what makes sense is going to be different. I sometimes see used Aimpoints for about $300. That seems pretty reasonable to me for a "fighting gun"and I've never had one disappoint me. f2c7bd08467fe532e86aedfec200b8c6.jpg

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I think all your points are valid. I personally couldn’t spend the money on an eotech or aimpoint. If I had a ton of disposable income I would probably buy all high end optics, but that isn’t the situation I’m in.

I personally started off with a TRS-25. I thought it was good red dot and fit my set up at the time. I stepped up to a Vortex red dot to replace the TRS-25 when I added the magnifier to my DPMS Oracle. I feel like the Vortex was well worth the extra money over the TRS.

I just put a Sig Romeo5 on my FM9 pistol and I love it.

I am more a middle of the road guy. I wanna buy the best quality I can afford and that is gonna be reliable.

Sean


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As long as you are happy I am happy.

After all, my motto is "Shoot what you like, and like what you shoot". 

 

Personally, I would not put inexpensive Chinese dots on a weapon whose purpose is self defense. My disposable income is nil.   Save your money up for good optics is my best advice.   Any AR worth its salt can do minute of bad guy with iron sights. 

Every man should have at least one AR that is fit to take into battle. 

 

Just my 2 cents. 

 

 

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58 minutes ago, Retcop said:

As long as you are happy I am happy.

After all, my motto is "Shoot what you like, and like what you shoot". 

 

Personally, I would not put inexpensive Chinese dots on a weapon whose purpose is self defense. My disposable income is nil.   Save your money up for good optics is my best advice.   Any AR worth its salt can do minute of bad guy with iron sights. 

Every man should have at least one AR that is fit to take into battle. 

 

Just my 2 cents. 

 

 


 

 Meh, who cares, put cheap optics on a serious blaster, it’s better to buy cheap than save a life.......

 

If it’s a plunked, fun gun, no serious life safety gun, heck yes put anything you want on, it’s a fun gun......

 

But if it’s anything for life safety, use a cheap optic, with cheap mount so when it’s knocked, falls over it breaks or looses zero....it’s not important 

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I will say that I hate red dots which have fiddly rubber buttons, that stuff gets on my nerves. It seems like they're getting bumped in the case or the safe and the batteries run down or whatever. Even the Burris 1-4 x24 when they changed it to a rheostat control instead of a rubber button was an improvement.

Like many, I also suffer from an astigmatism and I'm really hoping to see some accessible prism options to micro red dots. It seems like Vortex and Primary Arms, among others, are moving in that direction. I'd like to see something micro that's a little more affordable than the Trijicon ACOG 1.5, and something not made of chinesium if possible, but perhaps that's asking too much.

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39 minutes ago, Rampy said:


 

 Meh, who cares, put cheap optics on a serious blaster, it’s better to buy cheap than save a life.......

 

If it’s a plunked, fun gun, no serious life safety gun, heck yes put anything you want on, it’s a fun gun......

 

But if it’s anything for life safety, use a cheap optic, with cheap mount so when it’s knocked, falls over it breaks or looses zero....it’s not important 

 

I bought my SIL a Sig Red Dot for not alot of money (I think like 120 bucks, think they are cheaper now, a Romeo 5) compared to my Aimpoint and my EoTech 2 or 3 years ago. My unproven theory, is that the Sig Corporation is going to invest in the monitoring of Quality Control even though the sight is made in China. My logic is that SIG is not going to allow their name to be put on products that are junk, and the price was a bit more than the cheap Chinese knock offs, and so far this Sig Red Dot has been flawless for more than 2 years. Hopefully my theory has merit, and would say the same for Chinese made red dots that Vortex, Leopold and other companies that have built a brand that are going to be much more strict when it comes to Quality Control and also producing a product that can hold up to some abuse.  There are some folks here (cough, cough) that have taken to products like the Holisun line even though it has yet to be proven in actual use by any Military or large Police Departments, and the failure rates and reasons analyzed.  BTW, the grandson loves the red dot. My SIL had used iron sights on his M16 in the Army, and is a hell of a shot with them.  Amazing. 

 

To be fair, I have read that China is virtually the only country that is producing these very small electronic parts that go into even the proven brands, but having worked in an electronics factory, I know about testing each individual part, putting stress on them, and then dividing them into batches with different failure rates. The parts with higher failure rates would be sold at lower prices for budget electronics, and the parts with very low failure rates were more expensive, and were bought by companies that produced high end products with reputations for long life, since they had built a brand where people had come to expect the better quality and longevity the brand and the higher price represented. Brands are ruined when the bean counters win the debate over using inferior parts to increase profit margin. 

Of course, with any red dot, how it is put together, and the measures taken to protect the sensitive electronic parts from the rigors of actual combat use can make all the difference in the world when you are laying down your hard earned bucks.

Also to be fair, an AR with back up sights (especially one with a tritium front post) the failure of the red dot is not the failure of the weapon. So another question becomes whether to put your limited budget into the best rifle possible, use a middle of the road red dot (if that what suits you), and a really good pair of back up sights in case the red dot fails.  Aimpoints and Eotechs fail. People who train can and have done a damn fine job using AR's or M16's with iron sights. 

 

I'm not trying to be snarky or to look down on anyone else's choices, but only to give food for thought. 

Shoot what you like, and like what you shoot. 

Picking weapons and gear with which to defend your life is a highly personal matter, and should be respected as such.

The person who will reap the consequences of their choices are the ones making the decisions on what is suitable for themselves.  It's all good.  My ego is not tied to brand choice, although quality is. 

 

Let's hope that companies based in America are running full component testing on everything they are receiving from China

before they build their products here in America, Canada, or Mexico.  Some of these electronic parts are only available from China in large enough quantities.

If we could stop the government from printing all this money and causing inflation, or if we could stop the tax increases that are to come shortly, maybe more Americans would be willing to buy products made in the USA, and pay a little extra for them. Even with Aimpoint being produced in Europe, at least it is being produced by Western Civilization, and a country that respects most human rights, and cares about maintaining their brand and using what they have learned in their Military contracts in their consumer products.  My EoTech is the same device used by the Military when I bought it, including the built in QD.     One great thing about the gun world is that there are plenty of ways to skin cats. Some people still like to give me a boat load of crap because my sidearm of choice is a ~ 30 year-old well maintained GEN 3 Glock.

As a cop, my philosophy about sidearms is the most important thing is that they had to go bang every single time I pull the trigger, and to be accurate enough for use as a sidearm. (Whatever that means to you)  I am still using this old, scratched, and completely outdated Glock because every single time I thought about replacing it a voice in my head kept saying,

This sidearm has never failed to go bang when pulled the trigger, it is still more accurate than you are, and if fires from every position cattywampus, upside down, or between my legs with a mirror. (just kidding on the last one.) It has never had any type of failure to function.  The way my mind works is why get the latest/greatest unproven sidearm, never fielded by any Military or PD, why not stick with my old friend I have complete confidence in ?   (Change springs, etc per MOA)

Now keep my secret, because I have yet to tell my Glock that she will soon be changing assignments, as I will soon me buying a smaller Glock with less capacity, to take some weight of my belt, where both sacroiliac joints are ruptured, partly from carrying 35 pounds or so of gear around my waist all those years, say the docs. 

 

I see no good at being insulting over the use of different gear. It is a service to other members if the need is there to tell them what they are using has been shown to be unreliable by a large sampling of unbiased shooters/Military/Police Departments.

These are personal choices. Tell them the truth as you see it, of course and let them use the info they want, and through away the rest.  

John 

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1 hour ago, Short_Round said:

I will say that I hate red dots which have fiddly rubber buttons, that stuff gets on my nerves. It seems like they're getting bumped in the case or the safe and the batteries run down or whatever. Even the Burris 1-4 x24 when they changed it to a rheostat control instead of a rubber button was an improvement.

Like many, I also suffer from an astigmatism and I'm really hoping to see some accessible prism options to micro red dots. It seems like Vortex and Primary Arms, among others, are moving in that direction. I'd like to see something micro that's a little more affordable than the Trijicon ACOG 1.5, and something not made of chinesium if possible, but perhaps that's asking too much.

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Primary Arms worked with Holosun on a red dot that helps with astigmatism & for some reason the Holosun line seems to work best with people who have it.

 

My astigmatism is bad, have learned to live with it over the years & no 2 optics/brands look the same to me & have read & been told that is totally normal....

 

Optics have come a long way baby & they are improving at a rapid pace....

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I bought my SIL a Sig Red Dot for not alot of money (I think like 120 bucks, think they are cheaper now, a Romeo 5) compared to my Aimpoint and my EoTech 2 or 3 years ago. My unproven theory, is that the Sig Corporation is going to invest in the monitoring of Quality Control even though the sight is made in China. My logic is that SIG is not going to allow their name to be put on products that are junk, and the price was a bit more than the cheap Chinese knock offs, and so far this Sig Red Dot has been flawless for more than 2 years. Hopefully my theory has merit, and would say the same for Chinese made red dots that Vortex, Leopold and other companies that have built a brand that are going to be much more strict when it comes to Quality Control and also producing a product that can hold up to some abuse.  There are some folks here (cough, cough) that have taken to products like the Holisun line even though it has yet to be proven in actual use by any Military or large Police Departments, and the failure rates and reasons analyzed.  BTW, the grandson loves the red dot. My SIL had used iron sights on his M16 in the Army, and is a hell of a shot with them.  Amazing. 
 
To be fair, I have read that China is virtually the only country that is producing these very small electronic parts that go into even the proven brands, but having worked in an electronics factory, I know about testing each individual part, putting stress on them, and then dividing them into batches with different failure rates. The parts with higher failure rates would be sold at lower prices for budget electronics, and the parts with very low failure rates were more expensive, and were bought by companies that produced high end products with reputations for long life, since they had built a brand where people had come to expect the better quality and longevity the brand and the higher price represented. Brands are ruined when the bean counters win the debate over using inferior parts to increase profit margin. 
Of course, with any red dot, how it is put together, and the measures taken to protect the sensitive electronic parts from the rigors of actual combat use can make all the difference in the world when you are laying down your hard earned bucks.
Also to be fair, an AR with back up sights (especially one with a tritium front post) the failure of the red dot is not the failure of the weapon. So another question becomes whether to put your limited budget into the best rifle possible, use a middle of the road red dot (if that what suits you), and a really good pair of back up sights in case the red dot fails.  Aimpoints and Eotechs fail. People who train can and have done a damn fine job using AR's or M16's with iron sights. 
 
I'm not trying to be snarky or to look down on anyone else's choices, but only to give food for thought. 
Shoot what you like, and like what you shoot. 
Picking weapons and gear with which to defend your life is a highly personal matter, and should be respected as such.
The person who will reap the consequences of their choices are the ones making the decisions on what is suitable for themselves.  It's all good.  My ego is not tied to brand choice, although quality is. 
 
Let's hope that companies based in America are running full component testing on everything they are receiving from China
before they build their products here in America, Canada, or Mexico.  Some of these electronic parts are only available from China in large enough quantities.
If we could stop the government from printing all this money and causing inflation, or if we could stop the tax increases that are to come shortly, maybe more Americans would be willing to buy products made in the USA, and pay a little extra for them. Even with Aimpoint being produced in Europe, at least it is being produced by Western Civilization, and a country that respects most human rights, and cares about maintaining their brand and using what they have learned in their Military contracts in their consumer products.  My EoTech is the same device used by the Military when I bought it, including the built in QD.     One great thing about the gun world is that there are plenty of ways to skin cats. Some people still like to give me a boat load of crap because my sidearm of choice is a ~ 30 year-old well maintained GEN 3 Glock.
As a cop, my philosophy about sidearms is the most important thing is that they had to go bang every single time I pull the trigger, and to be accurate enough for use as a sidearm. (Whatever that means to you)  I am still using this old, scratched, and completely outdated Glock because every single time I thought about replacing it a voice in my head kept saying,
This sidearm has never failed to go bang when pulled the trigger, it is still more accurate than you are, and if fires from every position cattywampus, upside down, or between my legs with a mirror. (just kidding on the last one.) It has never had any type of failure to function.  The way my mind works is why get the latest/greatest unproven sidearm, never fielded by any Military or PD, why not stick with my old friend I have complete confidence in ?   (Change springs, etc per MOA)
Now keep my secret, because I have yet to tell my Glock that she will soon be changing assignments, as I will soon me buying a smaller Glock with less capacity, to take some weight of my belt, where both sacroiliac joints are ruptured, partly from carrying 35 pounds or so of gear around my waist all those years, say the docs. 
 
I see no good at being insulting over the use of different gear. It is a service to other members if the need is there to tell them what they are using has been shown to be unreliable by a large sampling of unbiased shooters/Military/Police Departments.
These are personal choices. Tell them the truth as you see it, of course and let them use the info they want, and through away the rest.  
John 
Holy heck dude. My coffee break is only 15 minutes.

...Good points, though.

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4 hours ago, Rampy said:


Primary Arms worked with Holosun on a red dot that helps with astigmatism & for some reason the Holosun line seems to work best with people who have it.

 

My astigmatism is bad, have learned to live with it over the years & no 2 optics/brands look the same to me & have read & been told that is totally normal....

 

Optics have come a long way baby & they are improving at a rapid pace....

Astigmatism is exactly why I opted for more LPVOs than RDS.

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1 hour ago, Longhair said:

Astigmatism is exactly why I opted for more LPVOs than RDS.


Trijicon MRO works the best for me as far as for long arms & red dots......

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