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Factory Vehicle Audio Systems Stink


Rampy
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So my hearing is garbage & need hearing aids, but no matter what I try the Ford “Premium” B&O Sound system sucks, male/female voices are hard to hear & understand & it’s impossible to listen to most podcasts and/or talk on the phone using car play 

 

So…………..talked to a highly recommended vehicle audio/electronics shop 

 

They recommended 4 new Focal speakers, JL Audio amp and subwoofer, Zen interface and sound deadening the doors & bulkhead behind the back seats and all the pieces parts go tie the system together 

 

Woza is it more expensive thay I dreamed of, it’s not the old swapping in a Alpine head unit, amp and equalizer speakers/subwoofer of the 80’s (last time I screwed with car stereo) 

 

Takes 3 days to professionally instal the system & tune it to the truck

 

Sigh……..

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I have found since I went def that music is not enjoyable anymore because I cannot hear all the notes. I almost never turn the radio on in the vehicles that have one that works. I do have some head phones on my laptop that make music sound decent though. 

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On 10/13/2022 at 6:51 PM, towtruck said:

I have found since I went def that music is not enjoyable anymore because I cannot hear all the notes. I almost never turn the radio on in the vehicles that have one that works. I do have some head phones on my laptop that make music sound decent though. 

 

Deaf ; I hear between 31-11400 Hz  with significant LOSS  between 2900-3900 .  Now a typical Female voice range is 165-255  a males is 80-165 ,why couldn't I have deafness between 175-300 :segrin:

 

Give it a try :

https://www.classicfm.com/discover-music/how-high-can-you-hear-video-frequency-hearing-test/

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1 hour ago, BushXM15 said:

 

Deaf ; I hear between 31-11400 Hz  with significant LOSS  between 2900-3900 .  Now a typical Female voice range is 165-255  a males is 80-165 ,why couldn't I have deafness between 175-300 :segrin:

 

Give it a try :

https://www.classicfm.com/discover-music/how-high-can-you-hear-video-frequency-hearing-test/

 

Finding and listening to good recorded music on the best system I could afford was for a while, a hobby and a passion. As of about 3 years ago, my hearing loss was not that bad. The worst was my left ear, which still only showed moderate hearing loss, mostly in the high ranges. The bad news was the tinnitus. Like a death sentence, there is not much they can do for it. Had it for quite a while, and it keeps getting worse. Hearing aides do me no good, and most actually aggravate the problem. At best, it is a wash.

 

If anyone with hearing problems from tinnitus has found any answers, please post them here and/or shoot be a PM. I would be grateful. Anyone that has a significant case knows what a nightmare it can be at times. 

I am constantly scanning the latest research. The only thing that even suggests a direction for research to go is that a meta-analysis of studies shows that tinnitus has nothing to do with the ear itself and everything to do with the part of the brain that decodes the signals from the auditory nerve. Other than that, zip, nada, nothing. 

One would think there would be good private and public funding of tinnitus research. The people that find a solution, or even a way to help the problem in any significant way are going to be very wealthy people, as well as being hailed as heroes. If you are not sure how bad tinnitus can get, all you have to do is look at the studies that show that tinnitus was the factor, or a very significant factor in a good number of suicides for men in certain age groups reporting severe tinnitus.  

 

I'm glad people have learned to take care of their hearing, especially with their kids. When I see a person I know having his 3 year old boy ride with him on his tractor without Earpro, I want to offer to watch the kid. But this guy is like a lot of rural folk...they like their privacy, and not being told what to do with their own kids. I surely don't want the boy to get in the middle of anything...and I've never had any neighbor problems in my life.

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On 10/13/2022 at 6:51 PM, towtruck said:

I have found since I went def that music is not enjoyable anymore because I cannot hear all the notes. I almost never turn the radio on in the vehicles that have one that works. I do have some head phones on my laptop that make music sound decent though. 


yep, exactly what I’ve been dealing with, high range & mid range are where I’m struggling & womens voices are extremely hard to hear, seems I lip read more than I realize 

 

Wife listens to the radio but a full 80% of the time I’m oblivious as it’s not loud enough for me 

 

Hopefully this will solve some of my problems, it’s even more expensive than the Carver/ CV home system I’ve had since Okinawa where it was stupid cheap….

 

Is carver even made anymore 

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1 hour ago, Rampy said:


yep, exactly what I’ve been dealing with, high range & mid range are where I’m struggling & womens voices are extremely hard to hear, seems I lip read more than I realize 

 

Wife listens to the radio but a full 80% of the time I’m oblivious as it’s not loud enough for me 

 

Hopefully this will solve some of my problems, it’s even more expensive than the Carver/ CV home system I’ve had since Okinawa where it was stupid cheap….

 

Is carver even made anymore 

My wife is like that and her hearing is worse than mine.  No way she can hear it at the levels she wants.  I think she either enjoys just having some background noise or she enjoys the constant turn it up turn it down battle with me. 

 

As for stereos, I too am a Stereophile.  I have the stereo from hell at home, 0.05% THD at 1,000 hz and 1 watt.  Sales people don't even know what the hell that is anymore.  What you learn is frequency response is a big deal as it relates to your input source.  High frequency stereo and low frequency input source, you have excess frequency which you need to clip or you get a degraded output (hiss) which was the whole point of Dolby.  Unfortunately what we've done is over the decades degraded our input sources.  LP unless you got a digital album which was 20K hz, had limited hz range but the slew and rise time was outstanding.  After that CDs had great hz but we canned the dyanamic range, and now MP3s can it even more.  Compare MP3 to radio and its heaven.  Sat is very good assuming their source doesn't suck.  I use to go for the stereo from hell in my car but pretty much have just given up.  Not because you can't but because there's only so much you can do with the crappy input sources.  NOw its all about watts and trying to make up for crappy sources with high wattage and inefficient speakers.  Nobody understands separation anymore except maybe the designers so its almost a crap shoot if we get lucky with our best odds the higher priced.  Subwoofers tend to make you think you have more dynamic range that we do but you go back and play your old stereo from hell, you know we don't and start going "Why the hell did we ever go from this?"  

 

Sorry for the rant.  How crappy our sound systems are now is a pet peeve of mine.  I just put the most expensive Sony I could find in my Z3 and man it sucks.  Its Marine so I guess it has something but sound it isn't. 

 

Tj

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On 10/13/2022 at 9:39 PM, Retcop said:

 

Finding and listening to good recorded music on the best system I could afford was for a while, a hobby and a passion. As of about 3 years ago, my hearing loss was not that bad. The worst was my left ear, which still only showed moderate hearing loss, mostly in the high ranges. The bad news was the tinnitus. Like a death sentence, there is not much they can do for it. Had it for quite a while, and it keeps getting worse. Hearing aides do me no good, and most actually aggravate the problem. At best, it is a wash.

 

If anyone with hearing problems from tinnitus has found any answers, please post them here and/or shoot be a PM. I would be grateful. Anyone that has a significant case knows what a nightmare it can be at times. 

I am constantly scanning the latest research. The only thing that even suggests a direction for research to go is that a meta-analysis of studies shows that tinnitus has nothing to do with the ear itself and everything to do with the part of the brain that decodes the signals from the auditory nerve. Other than that, zip, nada, nothing. 

One would think there would be good private and public funding of tinnitus research. The people that find a solution, or even a way to help the problem in any significant way are going to be very wealthy people, as well as being hailed as heroes. If you are not sure how bad tinnitus can get, all you have to do is look at the studies that show that tinnitus was the factor, or a very significant factor in a good number of suicides for men in certain age groups reporting severe tinnitus.  

 

I'm glad people have learned to take care of their hearing, especially with their kids. When I see a person I know having his 3 year old boy ride with him on his tractor without Earpro, I want to offer to watch the kid. But this guy is like a lot of rural folk...they like their privacy, and not being told what to do with their own kids. I surely don't want the boy to get in the middle of anything...and I've never had any neighbor problems in my life.

 

John I know squat about tinnitus ,although I have it and as You and have found NO miracle cure .

 

MY hearing  Other than being shot ,seems to be a problem with background noise . I told the audiologist hearing a conversation with multiple background noises was near impossible for Me . Same with TV  ,certain frequencies just DON'T register . In MY case volume DOESN'T help . I'm really NOT deaf ,I hear certain frequencies at low volume really well ,the upper end NOTHING !.

Early in My life running pneumatic air drills and hammers ( track drills for drilling and blasting ) ,even though I wore those little ear soft plugs ,did a number on them .

When I attended concerts and such ,I put those in MY ears ,as I had NO problems hearing sounds and Never liked loud sounds to begin with .

I was always mindful of what My Grandad told Me once ; Loud discussions are arguments and as they escalate ,so should they fall upon deaf ears . Putting an opinion or your proposition forth shouldn't require shouting . More people will respect You by NOT upping the volume .

 

After My stint in VN  ,people noticed I talked louder than prior to My going . Army didn't provide any ear protection other than to specific personnel ,A&P mechanics  artillery and persons generally around aircraft  loading unloading fueling and such . I was only and auxiliary fuel man ,so I could count on #1 hand the number of times I had ear protection . I was the Demo man  but that's Not what hurt My hearing . 5.56x45 ISN'T easy on hearing ,especially #7-22 ,  plus X-XXX # of SKS AK'S  going off near constantly .   I can also recall being within a 100 ft. of a 155 muzzle blast  without ear protection ,wasn't recommended either .

As I remind everyone when you're up to your azz in alligators ,it's difficult to to remember you're there too drain the swamp !.

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On 10/14/2022 at 4:42 AM, TomJefferson said:

My wife is like that and her hearing is worse than mine.  No way she can hear it at the levels she wants.  I think she either enjoys just having some background noise or she enjoys the constant turn it up turn it down battle with me. 

 

As for stereos, I too am a Stereophile.  I have the stereo from hell at home, 0.05% THD at 1,000 hz and 1 watt.  Sales people don't even know what the hell that is anymore.  What you learn is frequency response is a big deal as it relates to your input source.  High frequency stereo and low frequency input source, you have excess frequency which you need to clip or you get a degraded output (hiss) which was the whole point of Dolby.  Unfortunately what we've done is over the decades degraded our input sources.  LP unless you got a digital album which was 20K hz, had limited hz range but the slew and rise time was outstanding.  After that CDs had great hz but we canned the dyanamic range, and now MP3s can it even more.  Compare MP3 to radio and its heaven.  Sat is very good assuming their source doesn't suck.  I use to go for the stereo from hell in my car but pretty much have just given up.  Not because you can't but because there's only so much you can do with the crappy input sources.  NOw its all about watts and trying to make up for crappy sources with high wattage and inefficient speakers.  Nobody understands separation anymore except maybe the designers so its almost a crap shoot if we get lucky with our best odds the higher priced.  Subwoofers tend to make you think you have more dynamic range that we do but you go back and play your old stereo from hell, you know we don't and start going "Why the hell did we ever go from this?"  

 

Sorry for the rant.  How crappy our sound systems are now is a pet peeve of mine.  I just put the most expensive Sony I could find in my Z3 and man it sucks.  Its Marine so I guess it has something but sound it isn't. 

 

Tj


I miss the warmth of DJ’s spinning a record, that was the next best thing to live music. Nothing sounds as good as a record & it seems volume has replaced audio quality more and more 
 

The audio shop was explaining what you posted TJ & went into detail how people wanted volume thinking it ment quality & how cheaply speakers & such are anymore 

 

He went into detail about vehicle construction & how applying sound deadening material on the doors, rear bulkhead and floor made such a impact on sound quality, I’m getting the doors and rear bulkhead deadned & bonus points it acts as a insulator and stops all the little rattles & ghost noises. It almost doubled the cost if I was to pull the seats and carpet to deaden the floor so skipping that, just can not afford it. Hopefully doing the doors have a real impact 

 

They also use fiber optics to carry the sound between components but not to the speakers as they have found factory speaker wire is actually decent and stupid hard to replace with a higher quality 

 

Think I’m getting a 2ohm 400 watt system but forget the specs

 

Funny thing is the audio shop is about 120 miles from home, as all we have here is increasing volume to thump so hopefully in the end it will be worth everything 

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On 10/14/2022 at 2:39 AM, Rampy said:


yep, exactly what I’ve been dealing with, high range & mid range are where I’m struggling & womens voices are extremely hard to hear, seems I lip read more than I realize 

 

Wife listens to the radio but a full 80% of the time I’m oblivious as it’s not loud enough for me 

 

Hopefully this will solve some of my problems, it’s even more expensive than the Carver/ CV home system I’ve had since Okinawa where it was stupid cheap….

 

Is carver even made anymore 

 

You bet you ; They were or are still made in My home town ,a lot of sound came out of that SoCal city between San Diego and Los Angeles  aka Escondido !.

 

https://www.carversound.com/carver-amplifiers

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12 hours ago, BushXM15 said:

 

John I know squat about tinnitus ,although I have it and as You and have found NO miracle cure .

 

MY hearing  Other than being shot ,seems to be a problem with background noise . I told the audiologist hearing a conversation with multiple background noises was near impossible for Me . Same with TV  ,certain frequencies just DON'T register . In MY case volume DOESN'T help . I'm really NOT deaf ,I hear certain frequencies at low volume really well ,the upper end NOTHING !.

Early in My life running pneumatic air drills and hammers ( track drills for drilling and blasting ) ,even though I wore those little ear soft plugs ,did a number on them .

When I attended concerts and such ,I put those in MY ears ,as I had NO problems hearing sounds and Never liked loud sounds to begin with .

I was always mindful of what My Grandad told Me once ; Loud discussions are arguments and as they escalate ,so should they fall upon deaf ears . Putting an opinion or your proposition forth shouldn't require shouting . More people will respect You by NOT upping the volume .

 

After My stint in VN  ,people noticed I talked louder than prior to My going . Army didn't provide any ear protection other than to specific personnel ,A&P mechanics  artillery and persons generally around aircraft  loading unloading fueling and such . I was only and auxiliary fuel man ,so I could count on #1 hand the number of times I had ear protection . I was the Demo man  but that's Not what hurt My hearing . 5.56x45 ISN'T easy on hearing ,especially #7-22 ,  plus X-XXX # of SKS AK'S  going off near constantly .   I can also recall being within a 100 ft. of a 155 muzzle blast  without ear protection ,wasn't recommended either .

As I remind everyone when you're up to your azz in alligators ,it's difficult to to remember you're there too drain the swamp !.

 

One of the new challenges i am having with my hearing is that I am speaking too loudly, apparently so I can hear through all the tinnitus and actual hearing loss. So my speaking level can get loud when i'm having a bad hearing day, which is also tied to my BP. Apparently, all the BP meds in the world don't work when the BP is being risen by acute pain. The wife has been giving me signals for a while now, and I have improved in modulating my own voice...

Dad always told me getting old was no fun...

 

My old true stereo system still works after all these decades, although my turntable is on its last legs. 

I spent a long time finding a set up that could create that sweet spot of a floating soundstage, although most younger folks have been listening to compressed music with so much of the information missing for so long, they have no reference point in recorded music that they no longer realize that they are missing anything. What makes recorded music an experience worth having is not tied simply to power, or one parameter of "distortion" but when 

a pure microphone sent pure signals and recorded all of the frequencies the musicians layed down. To reproduce music, it's more than 20 to 20,000, it's everything. The generations who have basically been listening to MP3 recorded "music Cliff Notes" just don't seem to get it. 

 

There will always be honor involved in men who have had their hearing Fubared from there service in the Military, 

and those who messed it up doing an honest day's work.  The local pimp, drug runner, or gangbanger most likely lost his making every body panel in his pimpmobile rattle, or going to concerts.  I see no honor there. 

 

Audio/visual surround sound and the following iterations seem to have killed the quest for producing that elusive 3D "floating soundstage" that used to be possible with what they used to call "stereo".   Instead of being able to hear the guitar notes come from a different location from the drums with recorded music,  the solution seems to have turned into adding more and more speakers and wattage so that every instrument seems to becoming from everywhere, which is actually the opposite of what we were shooting for. One of the best sounding systems I have ever heard was a tiny and very simple tube unit (actually one unit for each channel) and IIRC each amp was 14 watts. 

 

Hopefully some of the older guys get what I'm saying from back in the day, so I don't sound like someone

who was a Nikola Tesla cultist, and no one understands what I' 

Save the vinyl, and believe it or not, the few CD's that were produced and contained all the information from the master tapes. Compressed recorded music is a joke, IMHO. one is simply not experiencing a bunch of what should be there, which includes frequencies outside the so-called audible range.  While we are at it, we can save the manuals...

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Guys, actually LPs are kind of in a comeback as they are now pressing vinyl again in limited runs.  As a result some pretty nice turntables are out there again.  You can even get direct drive old school strobe speed correction and the stylus are downright unbeatable.  The Audio technica top end is 20-55,000 hz with 28 db of separation.  Hell I don't even know what you would use that for?  Its way over any frequency response of any album I know and itsw $730 price tab is crazy.  Anyway you can get a 1980s spec stylus for like $50, 22,000 hz and 20 dbs of separation. 

 

Turn tables come in four basic designs, the usual belt no speed control, belt speed control, direct drive speed control, and the new computer speed control.  I don't know much about the new computer speed controls other than they got from around $300 to $800.  Outputs are all over the place from RCA to USB to Bluetooth to self ampified.   Once more I'm not too much on top of these new ones other than I bought a strobe controlled belt drive with USB for ripping LPs to MP3s on my computer.  I was quite surprised at how well it does.,  It holds speed almost making the strobe useless.  It must auto correct and the rumble is non-existent.  If you remember the old belt drives, both of those were big issues.  

 

Its quite obvious the technology on this stuff has gone way up since the 80's and when turntables were almost like 8 tracks and couldn't even find one.  I've been ripping quite a few of my album collection from LP to MP3 and it actually makes outstanding MP3s.  Many of my albums are not available anymore so no CDs or digital versions.  

 

I'll give you an example, I really like the 1973 album "White Witch".  If you recall, it was very popular with the hippie chicks.  I like the two songs "We'll all ride high" and "Class of 2000".  In fact, you listen to "Class of 2000" lyrics, its almost prophetic predicting both fashion and video games which was unheard of back then.  When I started this ripping thing, it wasn't published.  Now it is about every format including LP.  Anyway I now have the MP3 collection from hell and I find it amazing that in a very short amount of time I can create a mix with enough duration it rivals my old Pioneer RT909 real to real.  All of that on a damn thumb drive too.  Its all I use on my Harley and camper.  BTW, the Harley stereo, 2014 and up since the Rushmore project,  is exceptional.  Its a damn expensive ass stereo though.  You can buy a damn nice used metric bike for that that stereo costs but its crystal clear, great dynamic range and excellent separation.  You can be more of a nuisance with that damn thing than straight pipes.  LOL  The high end systems are over $3000.  People on Harley's are crazy.  They'll buy a bike with a high end amplified $3000 system and not even turn it on.  A cool feature is they're speed controlled turning the volume up or down depending on how fast you are going.  

 

Anyway, apparently a good thing doesn't die.

 

Tj

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Vintage audio is the rage ,as prices have skyrocketed over the last decade . McIntosh Marantz Garrard Thoren's  on and on high end even older Onkyo Pioneer are bringing Huge $$$ . I still retain original Vinyl LP's about #200 classic 60-70's albums . Sold a limited import of a Beatles album for $850.00 ,personally never cared for Beatles or Stones music .  Have all Tull ,Led Zeppelin Pink Floyd Fleetwood Mac along with Hendrix and  odds and ends including Jazz Greats and so on . I had several albums stolen #40 years back . One in particular that I could never find to replace ; Sonny Terry & Brownie McGhee !!. :cussing: A couple of very close High school buddy's became fairly famous disc jockeys  and one in particular had been collecting albums while in grade school . At one time John had perhaps  #15K albums ,unfortunately for John he's deceased . Losing his GF  #30 years back to Gregg Allman  was more than he could handle and drank himself to death LITERALLY !.

The Wife and I were among the last people to see John alive . Had a so called dinner with him Friday night at his favorite local restaurant bar , of which he neglected to dine at . He died early Saturday AM choked on his own vomit and drowned !.  We had been friends since Grade school a treasure trove of voice talent , ruined by a woman and Whisky !.

Anyway during our move My Technics refused to start ,so I put it aside and replaced it with Audio-Technica high end  ,with fully interrogated record playback via computer connection . So I can actually record vinyl in proper file format onto CD's ,thus preserving those vinyl albums . Speakers I rarely buy ,as I prefer to build My own . Gather driver components  design an enclosure ( I've had a little experience at that  :ROFLLMAO:)  for sound reproduction preferably between 32 Hz-22Khz as realistically 34 Hz- 9 kHz is all I'm gonna hear anyway . However I like MY crossover  ranges to fall within 30-1kHz  , 55-3.5 kHz  a quality soft dome tweeter 2.5 -22kHz  in a #3 way system .

Two way a little different

Some of MY personal favorite drivers are Scanspeak Vifa Jbl  Seas and others . Look at Madisound ,Performance ,Mouser you'll get the idea .

 

IF You can drill a few holes turn a couple of screws paint or veneer MDF or ? whatever wood or material you choose to make enclosures from  YOU too can BUILD some DECENT sounding speakers ,without breaking the bank !. Pre cut kits and even components are readily available from mild to wild .

 

Indoors I prefer traditional front 90- 40 90-60 deg on axis dispersion  ,larger open rooms or outside  omi directional tuned dispersion enclosures coupled with driver horns ,in other words commercial sound system components .  Some of the very best quality sound comes from amp pre driven or powered speakers . Key is like a quality tuner receiver or amp CLEAN POWER pre conditioned for best results .  Generally when I build MY stuff ,it rates between 90-96 dB I'm happy at 92-94 range as it's super efficient and requires low amps for FULL QUALITY sound .  Check out quarter wave tuning or transmission line enclosures  Tri Trix MTM

 

IF you're handy  You can make your own cabinets and select Better quality components for higher dB  ,as typically run of the mill stuff goes between 85-88 dB ,which is OK  but NOT the best for clean sounding music,  IMO   .  Please note I spent a fair amount of time at this and years inside of an anechoic chamber . I've NO way of proving it and it matters not to Me but I believe this is MY center channel build design ,as I did mine in 2006 and in fact they had access to several of our designs ,as they were a major component supplier to the company I worked for and with . **

 

https://www.parts-express.com/TriTrix-MTM-TL-Speaker-Components-And-Cabinet-Kit-Pair-300-702  

 

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/scanspeak-woofers-6-7/scanspeak-classic-p17wj00-6.5-woofer/

 

https://www.performanceaudio.com/live-sound/speakers/speaker-drivers-parts/midrange-midbass-drivers.html

 

https://www.mouser.com/

 

** https://www.jbl.com/loudspeakers/STAGE+A125C.html?dwvar_STAGE A125C_color=Black-USA-Current&cgid=loudspeakers

 

I'll post up MY center channel shortly as I'm on VPN and imgur WON'T allow VPN connections :cussing:

 

OK : My original design  was an MTM  , however later determined a TMM Wedge was better suited for voice center channel  in MY surround sound system . I also have the Samsung TV OLED 4K sound integrated with the center channel Only . Some folks like TV on surround sound  I DON'T . As I've got a dedicated center coupled with multiple front speakers , plus multiple side and rear surround speakers .  The rear cross fire as do the side units plus one 21" 26 Hz- 120 Hz. Sub woofer designed & built by English Dave ( again thanks Dave :anim_wave: ) He designed and wired it I built the enclosure to his specs . Inverted cone box  long funnel tube port and weighs 122 lb.  . When Godzilla walks our den shakes :segrin: So WE have SOUND EFFECTS Deluxe ,with miss matched components , Onkyo ,Yamaha Etc .

 

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Pretty much what it looks like today ,as I did some wire management :segrin: 12 &10 gauge Oxy. free drive wire

A mere 10 watts will drive you out of the room which is 20' W X 34' L  7.2 channel 100 watts per channel  . My sub is down firing and separately controlled ,if it wasn't one would be thumped to death watching any movie at reasonable volume .

All components have ALL sound capability Dolby /ATMOS  THX  ,Etc. .

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Before while setting up ,as I've a sound measuring setup device which gives optimal speaker placement , a fine tuning microphone which coupled with electronics measures your room and determines ideal speaker placements . 

Couches and cabinets down the sides and back wall .  The Wife's and My recliners  are about 16-18 Ft. from TV ,which sets 4 Ft. off the wall . Another of My earlier builds in black oak serve as front pairs  ,also side firing as do My old revamped Altec Lansing Voice of the theater side and rear firing speakers .   I've been to many peoples homes which crank up their systems 40-60 watts through them and honestly  ,there's NO comparison to our 10 watts . The one thing I've NEVER been able to do is ,find a single remote control for ALL the electronics . I use no less than #4 to control movies  and another #2 for sound  or TV .

Programming a VCR was child's play compared to WIRING THIS NIGHTMARE ,which also included #10 IR camera surveillance system .

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Port tuned open enclosure passive radiators  OLD School xezUUc1.jpg

 

I had little to NO choice learning HOW ,as one finds out later on in life ,sometimes NOBODY is around to help you figure it out !.

Carry on :thumb:

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On 10/15/2022 at 2:30 PM, BushXM15 said:

Vintage audio is the rage ,as prices have skyrocketed over the last decade . McIntosh Marantz Garrard Thoren's  on and on high end even older Onkyo Pioneer are bringing Huge $$$ . I still retain original Vinyl LP's about #200 classic 60-70's albums . Sold a limited import of a Beatles album for $850.00 ,personally never cared for Beatles or Stones music .  Have all Tull ,Led Zeppelin Pink Floyd Fleetwood Mac along with Hendrix and  odds and ends including Jazz Greats and so on . I had several albums stolen #40 years back . One in particular that I could never find to replace ; Sonny Terry & Brownie McGhee !!. :cussing: A couple of very close High school buddy's became fairly famous disc jockeys  and one in particular had been collecting albums while in grade school . At one time John had perhaps  #15K albums ,unfortunately for John he's deceased . Losing his GF  #30 years back to Gregg Allman  was more than he could handle and drank himself to death LITERALLY !.

The Wife and I were among the last people to see John alive . Had a so called dinner with him Friday night at his favorite local restaurant bar , of which he neglected to dine at . He died early Saturday AM choked on his own vomit and drowned !.  We had been friends since Grade school a treasure trove of voice talent , ruined by a woman and Whisky !.

Anyway during our move My Technics refused to start ,so I put it aside and replaced it with Audio-Technica high end  ,with fully interrogated record playback via computer connection . So I can actually record vinyl in proper file format onto CD's ,thus preserving those vinyl albums . Speakers I rarely buy ,as I prefer to build My own . Gather driver components  design an enclosure ( I've had a little experience at that  :ROFLLMAO:)  for sound reproduction preferably between 32 Hz-22Khz as realistically 34 Hz- 9 kHz is all I'm gonna hear anyway . However I like MY crossover  ranges to fall within 30-1kHz  , 55-3.5 kHz  a quality soft dome tweeter 2.5 -22kHz  in a #3 way system .

Two way a little different

Some of MY personal favorite drivers are Scanspeak Vifa Jbl  Seas and others . Look at Madisound ,Performance ,Mouser you'll get the idea .

 

IF You can drill a few holes turn a couple of screws paint or veneer MDF or ? whatever wood or material you choose to make enclosures from  YOU too can BUILD some DECENT sounding speakers ,without breaking the bank !. Pre cut kits and even components are readily available from mild to wild .

 

Indoors I prefer traditional front 90- 40 90-60 deg on axis dispersion  ,larger open rooms or outside  omi directional tuned dispersion enclosures coupled with driver horns ,in other words commercial sound system components .  Some of the very best quality sound comes from amp pre driven or powered speakers . Key is like a quality tuner receiver or amp CLEAN POWER pre conditioned for best results .  Generally when I build MY stuff ,it rates between 90-96 dB I'm happy at 92-94 range as it's super efficient and requires low amps for FULL QUALITY sound .  Check out quarter wave tuning or transmission line enclosures  Tri Trix MTM

 

IF you're handy  You can make your own cabinets and select Better quality components for higher dB  ,as typically run of the mill stuff goes between 85-88 dB ,which is OK  but NOT the best for clean sounding music,  IMO   .  Please note I spent a fair amount of time at this and years inside of an anechoic chamber . I've NO way of proving it and it matters not to Me but I believe this is MY center channel build design ,as I did mine in 2006 and in fact they had access to several of our designs ,as they were a major component supplier to the company I worked for and with . **

 

https://www.parts-express.com/TriTrix-MTM-TL-Speaker-Components-And-Cabinet-Kit-Pair-300-702  

 

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/scanspeak-woofers-6-7/scanspeak-classic-p17wj00-6.5-woofer/

 

https://www.performanceaudio.com/live-sound/speakers/speaker-drivers-parts/midrange-midbass-drivers.html

 

https://www.mouser.com/

 

** https://www.jbl.com/loudspeakers/STAGE+A125C.html?dwvar_STAGE A125C_color=Black-USA-Current&cgid=loudspeakers

 

I'll post up MY center channel shortly as I'm on VPN and imgur WON'T allow VPN connections :cussing:

 

OK : My original design  was an MTM  , however later determined a TMM Wedge was better suited for voice center channel  in MY surround sound system . I also have the Samsung TV OLED 4K sound integrated with the center channel Only . Some folks like TV on surround sound  I DON'T . As I've got a dedicated center coupled with multiple front speakers , plus multiple side and rear surround speakers .  The rear cross fire as do the side units plus one 21" 26 Hz- 120 Hz. Sub woofer designed & built by English Dave ( again thanks Dave :anim_wave: ) He designed and wired it I built the enclosure to his specs . Inverted cone box  long funnel tube port and weighs 122 lb.  . When Godzilla walks our den shakes :segrin: So WE have SOUND EFFECTS Deluxe ,with miss matched components , Onkyo ,Yamaha Etc .

 

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Pretty much what it looks like today ,as I did some wire management :segrin: 12 &10 gauge Oxy. free drive wire

A mere 10 watts will drive you out of the room which is 20' W X 34' L  7.2 channel 100 watts per channel  . My sub is down firing and separately controlled ,if it wasn't one would be thumped to death watching any movie at reasonable volume .

All components have ALL sound capability Dolby /ATMOS  THX  ,Etc. .

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Before while setting up ,as I've a sound measuring setup device which gives optimal speaker placement , a fine tuning microphone which coupled with electronics measures your room and determines ideal speaker placements . 

Couches and cabinets down the sides and back wall .  The Wife's and My recliners  are about 16-18 Ft. from TV ,which sets 4 Ft. off the wall . Another of My earlier builds in black oak serve as front pairs  ,also side firing as do My old revamped Altec Lansing Voice of the theater side and rear firing speakers .   I've been to many peoples homes which crank up their systems 40-60 watts through them and honestly  ,there's NO comparison to our 10 watts . The one thing I've NEVER been able to do is ,find a single remote control for ALL the electronics . I use no less than #4 to control movies  and another #2 for sound  or TV .

Programming a VCR was child's play compared to WIRING THIS NIGHTMARE ,which also included #10 IR camera surveillance system .

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Port tuned open enclosure passive radiators  OLD School xezUUc1.jpg

 

I had little to NO choice learning HOW ,as one finds out later on in life ,sometimes NOBODY is around to help you figure it out !.

Carry on :thumb:

 

You never fail to amaze Renaissance Man. As i mentioned here, and I believe in another thread, people have been listening to mostly severely compressed music for so long, I believe they have no idea what they are missing. 

Sonic ignorance is bliss, I guess. There is more to music than the audible frequency ranges, and the guys who were trying to move recorded music into advanced electronics, but still retaining the information as close as possible to a life performance or before music was compressed upon recording were actually my heroes. 

 

Unfortunately, I was never able to get into the high-end tube stuff, but i did become friends with a "stereo salesman" who worked out of his house, and was able to hear the difference between tube amplifiers and those that were solid state. My understanding that the electronics in a CD player, along with a CD that is properly produced from master tapes can very closely match the sonic quality of well made vinyl with tube amplifiers. 

 

Your speaker building intrigues me. I was taught that the creation of speakers that could actually create a 3D soundstage was as much of an artform as it was a mechanical science.  Companies large and small were investing millions into speaker research, with a good hunk of it coming out of Canadian Universities, reducing costs for the speaker companies. A contribution  to the school is much more cost efficient than paying for the labs, lab equipment, etc to capture magic in a bottle. I never looked at speaker construction like putting an AR (or other machine) together. While certain basic requirements and ways of doing things had been agreed upon, there is more to all of this than just numbers, but the design itself is an art. Even on the electronics part of it, I recall stories (propaganda?) of men wanting to recreate the experience of a live performance so badly they spent years just working out all the fine details, from speaker material, cabinet design, to what electronics made up the crossovers, and how those interacted (or did not)

I got busy with kids and career and enjoyed my space where I could hear the piano in a different spot than the tambourine, with the voice harmonies snaking thru them all. I remember searching for the record player cartridge that did well for not alot of money with my Dual turntable. Yeah it sounds a little crazy, but when starving stereophile businesses went hog wild after the very lucrative Audio/Visual large screen TV systems that were also supposed to recreate a sound stage, I just remained satisfied with what I had put together as far as what I thought were faithful components that had the ability to create an actual sound stage in your home. It's not like there were a lot of stereophiles in Sothern Illinois to begin with, and driving back and forth to St. Louis to listen to a pair of tube amplifiers and a preamp got pretty old, especially as lower production meant even higher prices that were soon totally out of reach. 

If and when you feel like it, tell us more, or shoot me a PM. If you know where I can find oil filled replacement feet for my aged Dual turntable , please let me know. I have no idea if they actually contributed anything to isolating the turntable, but that was the original equipment. 

 

The first set of what I considered to be real "stereophile speakers" I ever owned were a bookshelf pair of a brand called Morel, that were designed and made in Israel. After much listening to a pair owned by a friend/shop owner, I still remember calling the Morel importers in NYC, and speaking to a very nice Israeli sounding older man. I still can not shake the feeling that Morel Speakers USA did more than just sell a couple of models of stereo speakers for the designers and engineers at Morel in the Holy Land. The saddest part was that the speaker design was flawed. Even though to my ears they were some of the best at doing what I wanted them to do, I had what they used to call a tweeter go out on one of the speakers. Speaking to the same man again, even though the speakers were out of warranty, he apologized and quickly sent me not one but two new tweeters, since he said I would regain the best sound that way. (I think Morel knew there was a problem with their tweeters in this model.) I also found it interesting that he wanted both tweeters back for inspection, on their dime.  The speakers pleased me very much for many good years before a tweeter went out again.   NO, I did not push my speakers too hard.                               

 

Another call to NYC with phone no longer in service, and some legwork revealed that Morel Speakers were no more. I have stored them well, although I do not not how the "woofer" speaker has held up to the passage of time.  I'd love to get them cooking again, although I realize they will never sound the same. The enclosures are beautiful wood.  If you have any thoughts on what I could replace these tweeters with, that would ve , but I don't know if the original crossover will play nice with foreign tweeters, especially if they are not Kosher.

 

If I knew how to change this to a PM, without losing it, i would Bush. Sorry i went on so long. Not sleeping tonight, and I just realized it 4:33 AM.  if you want to talk stereos sometime, drop me a line please. If not, that's cool, too.

John

 

 

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My main system is pre-tarriff Kenwood 5600, 0.005thd, paired to an old Kenwood marble, direct drive marble base, and Cerwin Vega towers.  Originally it was KLH 319bs, 26,000hz, last speakers Kraus designed before he became a beach comer.  A broken pipe killed them.  I almost cried.   Goodies include pioneer 909 real to real, Dolby module, and graphic equalizer, vintage dual cassette. Total cost at the time was well over $2,000.  That was alot of money back then.   I have probably a 100 lps all kept pristine, no scratches or excessive wear.  Some from the 60's, but most 70's and 80's, and a couple collectables still in the plastic covers like the Lynard Skinner fire album and CSN pleated Album, and a lot that are not in repress.  I have a number of digital directs which if you recall they had a 20,000hz frequency respose 

 

My favorite system which I had give up was Marantz 4252 quad gyro touch paired to a Dual quad turntable with four AR speakers, another Kraus design.  

 

What I would love to find is a pair of old Sansui seven ways or vintage JBLs.  

 

Some of the old favorites I really liked are McKintosh tube and actually a 1950's Philco tube and a 1980's Nakamichi.   I also liked the ESS Heil air motions but you know those didn't last long.  That air motion tweeter would just die after awhile but holy cow was Pink Floyds "Money" awesome on those.  

 

Totally agree, everything is canned now and young folks have no clue what a really good sound was.  

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On 10/23/2022 at 3:36 AM, Retcop said:

 

You never fail to amaze Renaissance Man. As i mentioned here, and I believe in another thread, people have been listening to mostly severely compressed music for so long, I believe they have no idea what they are missing. 

Sonic ignorance is bliss, I guess. There is more to music than the audible frequency ranges, and the guys who were trying to move recorded music into advanced electronics, but still retaining the information as close as possible to a life performance or before music was compressed upon recording were actually my heroes. 

 

Unfortunately, I was never able to get into the high-end tube stuff, but i did become friends with a "stereo salesman" who worked out of his house, and was able to hear the difference between tube amplifiers and those that were solid state. My understanding that the electronics in a CD player, along with a CD that is properly produced from master tapes can very closely match the sonic quality of well made vinyl with tube amplifiers. 

 

Your speaker building intrigues me. I was taught that the creation of speakers that could actually create a 3D soundstage was as much of an artform as it was a mechanical science.  Companies large and small were investing millions into speaker research, with a good hunk of it coming out of Canadian Universities, reducing costs for the speaker companies. A contribution  to the school is much more cost efficient than paying for the labs, lab equipment, etc to capture magic in a bottle. I never looked at speaker construction like putting an AR (or other machine) together. While certain basic requirements and ways of doing things had been agreed upon, there is more to all of this than just numbers, but the design itself is an art. Even on the electronics part of it, I recall stories (propaganda?) of men wanting to recreate the experience of a live performance so badly they spent years just working out all the fine details, from speaker material, cabinet design, to what electronics made up the crossovers, and how those interacted (or did not)

I got busy with kids and career and enjoyed my space where I could hear the piano in a different spot than the tambourine, with the voice harmonies snaking thru them all. I remember searching for the record player cartridge that did well for not alot of money with my Dual turntable. Yeah it sounds a little crazy, but when starving stereophile businesses went hog wild after the very lucrative Audio/Visual large screen TV systems that were also supposed to recreate a sound stage, I just remained satisfied with what I had put together as far as what I thought were faithful components that had the ability to create an actual sound stage in your home. It's not like there were a lot of stereophiles in Sothern Illinois to begin with, and driving back and forth to St. Louis to listen to a pair of tube amplifiers and a preamp got pretty old, especially as lower production meant even higher prices that were soon totally out of reach. 

If and when you feel like it, tell us more, or shoot me a PM. If you know where I can find oil filled replacement feet for my aged Dual turntable , please let me know. I have no idea if they actually contributed anything to isolating the turntable, but that was the original equipment. 

 

The first set of what I considered to be real "stereophile speakers" I ever owned were a bookshelf pair of a brand called Morel, that were designed and made in Israel. After much listening to a pair owned by a friend/shop owner, I still remember calling the Morel importers in NYC, and speaking to a very nice Israeli sounding older man. I still can not shake the feeling that Morel Speakers USA did more than just sell a couple of models of stereo speakers for the designers and engineers at Morel in the Holy Land. The saddest part was that the speaker design was flawed. Even though to my ears they were some of the best at doing what I wanted them to do, I had what they used to call a tweeter go out on one of the speakers. Speaking to the same man again, even though the speakers were out of warranty, he apologized and quickly sent me not one but two new tweeters, since he said I would regain the best sound that way. (I think Morel knew there was a problem with their tweeters in this model.) I also found it interesting that he wanted both tweeters back for inspection, on their dime.  The speakers pleased me very much for many good years before a tweeter went out again.   NO, I did not push my speakers too hard.                               

 

Another call to NYC with phone no longer in service, and some legwork revealed that Morel Speakers were no more. I have stored them well, although I do not not how the "woofer" speaker has held up to the passage of time.  I'd love to get them cooking again, although I realize they will never sound the same. The enclosures are beautiful wood.  If you have any thoughts on what I could replace these tweeters with, that would ve , but I don't know if the original crossover will play nice with foreign tweeters, especially if they are not Kosher.

 

If I knew how to change this to a PM, without losing it, i would Bush. Sorry i went on so long. Not sleeping tonight, and I just realized it 4:33 AM.  if you want to talk stereos sometime, drop me a line please. If not, that's cool, too.

John

 

 

 

About the only thing affordable concerning Morel  are some of their drivers . Sound systems are BEYOND most peoples pockets !.  $ 54,000.00 plus a governor or #5 . They also got into audio sound systems at the extreme end  . Yes making complete harmonic full range sound reproduction requires Math Quality components careful enclosure design . Generally there's a trade off  enclosure size sealed ported material  and drivers which work with each other ,instead of having to cross over choke down capacities ,so as to more efficiently work with other components .  As I've always said LET professionals do the Heavy lifting ,one can purchase DECENT sounding speakers for reasonable cost or you can grab a readily available DIY design and UPGRADE standard components ; Thus creating excellent custom sound .

I should also mention one needs measuring equipment various meters and having an Oscilloscope won't hurt either . I still have Good Friends in both High and Low places including  ACE ,JBL , Behringer to mention a couple .

 

Example  : https://www.morelhifi.com/product/fat-lady/

 

 

Fat-lady-pair-1024x922.jpg.webp

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