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B17 crash in Dallas due to mid air collision


MontanaLon
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On 11/13/2022 at 5:34 AM, Recondo 101 said:

Looks like the fighter was flying a simulated strafing run on the bomber and just got too close before coming off the run on an inside turn. Collisions like that happened all the time during WWII, between combatants. On the 17 the preferred "Expert" attack was a nose on attack.

A very unnecessary thing to have happened, at a civilian air show, sad for the folks and their families.

 

On 11/13/2022 at 9:14 AM, Flesh Wound said:

According to a report I read this morning, a pilot (and lawyer) was on the ground taking photos and listening to the comms. He reports the controller told the P63 to overtake the B-17. 

 

From what the different videos show it sure looks like the P63 lost sight of the B-17 under it's nose.

 

Being an ex pilot  that's MY take on it also ; The P63 was attempting to over take the B-17  and cut an inside turn  which he over extended ,leading to cutting the B-17

fuselage as the B-17 was also turning inward .

 

What I'd really like too Know is Who the Hell allowed them  to maneuver at same altitude ,that's ATC's Responsibility  :cussing:

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On 11/13/2022 at 8:13 AM, andy2205 said:

 

There has already been mention of that on some other sites. Some are calling to have the remainder put on static display to preserve them.


That’s ignorant and like calling to ban all guns after a psyco shoots up a school 

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On 11/13/2022 at 11:54 AM, BushXM15 said:

 

 

Being an ex pilot  that's MY take on it also ; The P63 was attempting to over take the B-17  and cut an inside turn  which he over extended ,leading to cutting the B-17

fuselage as the B-17 was also turning inward .

 

What I'd really like too Know is Who the Hell allowed them  to maneuver at same altitude ,that's ATC's Responsibility  :cussing:


Watching other videos you can see 8-10 other aircraft in the background like some kind of aerial display 

 

The cockpit of the P63 has restricted visibility and this pilot is describing it and how restricted it is 

 

a6rFz0V.jpg

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On 11/13/2022 at 4:08 AM, TomJefferson said:

I can't begin to express how sad this made me when I first heard about it.  

 

I make a point to talk to and thank the pilots, maintenance crews, and the volunteers on the ground who make these air shows possible. Thankfully, one of our two local airports will host the shows, but I wish they could be larger and more often here, but we love it when they come. 

 

I don't know about wives and daughters, but what I do know flying those planes and keeping them running is a labor of love, and most guys do it to bring their joy and the history of these planes to the public, especially for the old timers and the kids.  That video is bad, and all I can say is I'm glad they died doing what they loved, and as far as I'm concerned they all went too young, and I wish them Godspeed. 

 

John

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I watched the entire video rather than the very short impact video they show on the news.  It appears to be a tragic formation collision.  The B17 was in the lead and made its turn to buzz the field.  The King Cobra was pacing its self with a P51 Mustang so was going much faster than the B17.  The B17 dropped altitude as it turned so that put it in the King Cobra's blind spot. The King Cobra made his turn much tighter and naturally faster than the B17 and right into the B17.  The idea was for all the aircraft to buzz the runway B17 first followed by the fighter abreast of each other.  

 

Dissimilar aircraft that would have been a heck of a maneuver even with kids with faster reflexes.  I'd bet the NTSB is simply going to blame the King Cobra pilot but there was a lot of physics involved and it started with the maneuver simply shouldn't have been done that way.  Landing protocol for any airport is in line one after the other and not a parallel approach to the runway and a sharp 360 degree turn.   Yes, they were attempting to put on a show with this approach but honestly I doubt the crowd would have appreciated how complicated it was.  

 

Anyway if you can get to see the entire video, it will give you a lot of insight to what happened.  

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On 11/17/2022 at 6:14 AM, TomJefferson said:

I watched the entire video rather than the very short impact video they show on the news.  It appears to be a tragic formation collision.  The B17 was in the lead and made its turn to buzz the field.  The King Cobra was pacing its self with a P51 Mustang so was going much faster than the B17.  The B17 dropped altitude as it turned so that put it in the King Cobra's blind spot. The King Cobra made his turn much tighter and naturally faster than the B17 and right into the B17.  The idea was for all the aircraft to buzz the runway B17 first followed by the fighter abreast of each other.  

 

Dissimilar aircraft that would have been a heck of a maneuver even with kids with faster reflexes.  I'd bet the NTSB is simply going to blame the King Cobra pilot but there was a lot of physics involved and it started with the maneuver simply shouldn't have been done that way.  Landing protocol for any airport is in line one after the other and not a parallel approach to the runway and a sharp 360 degree turn.   Yes, they were attempting to put on a show with this approach but honestly I doubt the crowd would have appreciated how complicated it was.  

 

Anyway if you can get to see the entire video, it will give you a lot of insight to what happened.  

I watched a video today which included the instructions from the "air boss" who told the P63 to pull ahead of the B17 and come alongside the P51. The pilot of the P63 lost sight of the B17 in his turn but continued to close on the P51. 

 

This like every air show disaster will be a learning experience and hopefully lead to safer air show practices in the future. The CAF is the only airshow organizer that does a "parade of planes" which puts multiple aircraft types into parallel paths at different speeds at the same altitude along reciprocal headings running along the show line. I'd expect before this is done they will change their plan to have planes flying one direction along the show line, put everyone at the same speed or get different altitudes if flying at different speeds. Because doing it the way they did with planes being marshalled about the formation at different speeds, different flight paths and the same altitudes is a recipe for this same thing happening again.

 

None of the involved were rookies, they were all high hour pilots with millions of combined miles of safe flight. Doing it the way the air show wanted it was bound to happen sooner or later.

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On 11/17/2022 at 5:36 PM, BushXM15 said:

Still say ATC is ultimately responsible  ,as NO altitude separation  or the pilot of the P63 Cobra violated B-17 airspace . Bling spot or not ,it's the PILOT who was at FAULT ,he takes ultimate responsibility for piloting his craft !. 

There was no ATC operating. They were closed for traffic due to the airshow. The air boss was on the show line calling the shots and he wanted a good show. Well, that didn't work out too well as he ended up with 2 planes occupying the same airspace at the same time and that is never good.

 

And the pilot of the P63 should have pulled up and out of the formation when he lost sight of the B17. We will never know why he didn't though but we can guess he was trying to put on a good show too. Get some speed up, go buzzing down the show line and thrill the crowd. 

 

The entire setup was unsafe and the fact they have gotten away without any crashes this long is simple dumb luck. 

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9 hours ago, MontanaLon said:

I watched a video today which included the instructions from the "air boss" who told the P63 to pull ahead of the B17 and come alongside the P51. The pilot of the P63 lost sight of the B17 in his turn but continued to close on the P51. 

 

This like every air show disaster will be a learning experience and hopefully lead to safer air show practices in the future. The CAF is the only airshow organizer that does a "parade of planes" which puts multiple aircraft types into parallel paths at different speeds at the same altitude along reciprocal headings running along the show line. I'd expect before this is done they will change their plan to have planes flying one direction along the show line, put everyone at the same speed or get different altitudes if flying at different speeds. Because doing it the way they did with planes being marshalled about the formation at different speeds, different flight paths and the same altitudes is a recipe for this same thing happening again.

 

None of the involved were rookies, they were all high hour pilots with millions of combined miles of safe flight. Doing it the way the air show wanted it was bound to happen sooner or later.

Thanks.  I didn't know about the "Air Boss" or the attempted maneuver.  That fills in even more gaps.  I still think it would have been totally lost on the crowd on the ground and totally unnecessary for a simply fly by at low level.  

 

I was also wondering what factor the P63's and for that matter the older P39 design had on the accident?  The aircraft has a reputation for being squirrelly.  In fact, in simulators from games to flight simulators, I often think the programmers over emphasized that.  Got me wondering, maybe not.  

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6 hours ago, TomJefferson said:

I was also wondering what factor the P63's and for that matter the older P39 design had on the accident?  The aircraft has a reputation for being squirrelly.  In fact, in simulators from games to flight simulators, I often think the programmers over emphasized that.  Got me wondering, maybe not.  

 

"Don't give me a P-39.

The engine is mounted behind.

 They'll tumble and spin and auger you in,

Don't give me a P-39."

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On 11/17/2022 at 4:45 PM, MontanaLon said:

There was no ATC operating. They were closed for traffic due to the airshow. The air boss was on the show line calling the shots and he wanted a good show. Well, that didn't work out too well as he ended up with 2 planes occupying the same airspace at the same time and that is never good.

 

And the pilot of the P63 should have pulled up and out of the formation when he lost sight of the B17. We will never know why he didn't though but we can guess he was trying to put on a good show too. Get some speed up, go buzzing down the show line and thrill the crowd. 

 

The entire setup was unsafe and the fact they have gotten away without any crashes this long is simple dumb luck. 

 

 

FYI : Air Boss is aboard a carrier .

 

Air Shows DON'T operate without ATC and meticulous pre arranged  flight schedules  ,everyone is a performer  and an intricate part of the ballet . That is until ONE player aka pilot loses his plane or trajectory ,whether or not that happens due to mechanical failure or " Pilot Error " is ultimately determined by  the OOAI Div. of FAA .

You DON'T want to know how I know that  .

 

The ATC staff includes the ATC controllers and ultimately the pilots. In particular, the ATC controllers are responsible for monitoring and controlling the air traffic in the airspace of their jurisdiction—this is usually a sector within the terminal, low- and/or high (upper)-altitude airspace. The ATC controllers are usually organized as teams of two or three persons with precise division of tasks and responsibilities. The latter actors—pilots—participate in the ATC processes by following, in addition to their own, instructions and guidance from the ATC controllers. These instructions mainly relate to maintaining the allocated four-dimensional trajectories and maintaining separation from other aircraft/traffic and the obstacles on the ground (in the vicinity of and at the airports). In the contemporary ATC systems, the ATC controllers use the workstations equipped with synthetic radar screens and consoles with the information on the aircrafts/flights, which are currently under their jurisdiction, and those which are expected to be soon at the entry of their sector(s) (in the next half an hour). At the beginning, the information about the aircraft/flight based on the flight plan is passed to the ATC unit through AFTN (Aeronautical Fixed Telecommunication Network). The ATC registers the received information about the flight, which generally contains the radar identification code, aircraft type, planned origin and destination airport, required route and FLs along it, ground speed, type of the avionics onboard, etc

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On 11/19/2022 at 6:48 PM, BushXM15 said:

FYI : Air Boss is aboard a carrier

It is also a term for the person who choreographs the airshow and who is in control of every aircraft in the airshow area.

 

The air boss doesn't have to be a credentialed ATC. They are assigned by the airshow who has to get an Area ATC waiver. The waiver results in a Temporary Flight Restriction for the show area which means the aircraft in the show area are not under ATC but listening to the airboss. ATC still monitors the TFR but only to make sure no aircraft enter the TFR area who are not under the control of the air boss. What happens in the TFR area is of no importance to them if it is show aircraft. The TFR's for airshows are typically from the surface to space. Only show aircraft are allowed in the area. 

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On 11/20/2022 at 12:26 AM, MontanaLon said:

It is also a term for the person who choreographs the airshow and who is in control of every aircraft in the airshow area.

 

The air boss doesn't have to be a credentialed ATC. They are assigned by the airshow who has to get an Area ATC waiver. The waiver results in a Temporary Flight Restriction for the show area which means the aircraft in the show area are not under ATC but listening to the airboss. ATC still monitors the TFR but only to make sure no aircraft enter the TFR area who are not under the control of the air boss. What happens in the TFR area is of no importance to them if it is show aircraft. The TFR's for airshows are typically from the surface to space. Only show aircraft are allowed in the area. 

 

NOPE :

 

ATC is NEVER dismissed and is made up of a group of persons ,with a Director or Senior controller . I had a very close friend of mine  who used to perform at air shows  and EVERY participating aircraft or stunt person involved with the air show ,MUST be certificate current NO EXCEPTIONS . They must also submit a flight performance routine or flight path of occupancy  . Air shows aren't some free for all willy nilly wild barnstorming event ,they're CAREFULLY choreographed and gone over by Numerous flight safety personnel ,as well as ATC  . CAN'T perform without standards of compliance .   Air space is restricted  5 mile radius 17,000 MSL

 

  Position reporting at airshows  Not necessary. The pilot will be in
radar and communications contact
with ATC at all times within the ADIZ

 

IFR or DVFR. The flight
plan must also be filed before depar-
ture, except for operations associated

with the Alaskan ADIZ                 

 

§ 91.145 Management of aircraft operations in the vicinity of aerial demonstrations and major sporting events.

(a) The FAA will issue a Notice to Airmen (NOTAM) designating an area of airspace in which a temporary flight restriction applies when it determines that a temporary flight restriction is necessary to protect persons or property on the surface or in the air, to maintain air safety and efficiency, or to prevent the unsafe congestion of aircraft in the vicinity of an aerial demonstration or major sporting event. These demonstrations and events may include:

(1) United States Naval Flight Demonstration Team (Blue Angels);

(2) United States Air Force Air Demonstration Squadron (Thunderbirds);

(3) United States Army Parachute Team (Golden Knights);

(4) Summer/Winter Olympic Games;

(5) Annual Tournament of Roses Football Game;

(6) World Cup Soccer;

(7) Major League Baseball All-Star Game;

(8) World Series;

(9) Kodak Albuquerque International Balloon Fiesta;

(10) Sandia Classic Hang Gliding Competition;

(11) Indianapolis 500 Mile Race;

(12) Any other aerial demonstration or sporting event the FAA determines to need a temporary flight restriction in accordance with paragraph (b) of this section.

(b) In deciding whether a temporary flight restriction is necessary for an aerial demonstration or major sporting event not listed in paragraph (a) of this section, the FAA considers the following factors:

(1) Area where the event will be held.

(2) Effect flight restrictions will have on known aircraft operations.

(3) Any existing ATC airspace traffic management restrictions.

(4) Estimated duration of the event.

(5) Degree of public interest.

(6) Number of spectators.

(7) Provisions for spectator safety.

(8) Number and types of participating aircraft.

(9) Use of mixed high and low performance aircraft.

(10) Impact on non-participating aircraft.

(11) Weather minimums.

(12) Emergency procedures that will be in effect.

(c) A NOTAM issued under this section will state the name of the aerial demonstration or sporting event and specify the effective dates and times, the geographic features or coordinates, and any other restrictions or procedures governing flight operations in the designated airspace.

(d) When a NOTAM has been issued in accordance with this section, no person may operate an aircraft or device, or engage in any activity within the designated airspace area, except in accordance with the authorizations, terms, and conditions of the temporary flight restriction published in the NOTAM, unless otherwise authorized by:

(1) Air traffic control; or

(2) A Flight Standards Certificate of Waiver or Authorization issued for the demonstration or event.

(e) For the purpose of this section:

(1) Flight restricted airspace area for an aerial demonstration - The amount of airspace needed to protect persons and property on the surface or in the air, to maintain air safety and efficiency, or to prevent the unsafe congestion of aircraft will vary depending on the aerial demonstration and the factors listed in paragraph (b) of this section. The restricted airspace area will normally be limited to a 5 nautical mile radius from the center of the demonstration and an altitude 17000 mean sea level (for high performance aircraft) or 13000 feet above the surface (for certain parachute operations), but will be no greater than the minimum airspace necessary for the management of aircraft operations in the vicinity of the specified area.

(2) Flight restricted area for a major sporting event - The amount of airspace needed to protect persons and property on the surface or in the air, to maintain air safety and efficiency, or to prevent the unsafe congestion of aircraft will vary depending on the size of the event and the factors listed in paragraph (b) of this section. The restricted airspace will normally be limited to a 3 nautical mile radius from the center of the event and 2500 feet above the surface but will not be greater than the minimum airspace necessary for the management of aircraft operations in the vicinity of the specified area.

(f) A NOTAM issued under this section will be issued at least 30 days in advance of an aerial demonstration or a major sporting event, unless the FAA finds good cause for a shorter period and explains this in the NOTAM.

(g) When warranted, the FAA Administrator may exclude the following flights from the provisions of this section:

(1) Essential military.

(2) Medical and rescue.

(3) Presidential and Vice Presidential.

(4) Visiting heads of state.

(5) Law enforcement and security.

(6) Public health and welfare.

 

Pilot of P63 was in violation of Section #9 Air shows special provisions

https://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/airshow/media/Air_Show_Special_Provisions.pdf

Air Show Special Provisions
Aviation Event Maneuvering Chart
9. Repositioning Turns.
a. Return to the Flying Display Area/Aerobatic Box. Conducting repositioning turns having an
energy vector directed towards the primary spectator area, and in accordance with subparagraph
3-147L, made for the purposes of returning to the flying display area or aerobatic box to realign
with the appropriate category aircraft show line, must be completed as follows:

i. Civilian performers. Pilots who hold a SAC with an Aerobatic endorsement (Solo or
Formation) and flying Category III or Category I and Category II ex-military fighters
are permitted to perform repositioning turns for the purposes of returning to the flying
display area or aerobatic box using a maximum of 120 degrees of bank and 90 degrees
of pitch when above 500 feet AGL and not over designated spectator areas or congested
areas.

ii. Pilots who hold a SAC with a Dynamic Maneuvering–Solo endorsement are permitted
to perform repositioning turns using a maximum of 90 degrees of bank and 60 degrees
of pitch when above 500 feet AGL when not over designated spectator areas or
congested areas. Formation not authorized.

iii. Military jet demonstration teams and single-ship demonstration teams for the purposes
of returning to the flying display area or aerobatic box:

iv. Military demonstration teams with accepted maneuvers packages are permitted to
exceed a maximum of 120 degrees of bank and 90 degrees of pitch; Pitch and bank
angles must not exceed standard operating procedures prescribed for the specific
aircraft; and Inverted flight is not authorized below 1,500 feet AGL and not over
congested areas or spectator areas.

 

 

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On 11/20/2022 at 4:18 PM, BushXM15 said:

 

NOPE :

 

ATC is NEVER dismissed and is made up of a group of persons ,with a Director or Senior controller . I had a very close friend of mine  who used to perform at air shows  and EVERY participating aircraft or stunt person involved with the air show ,MUST be certificate current NO EXCEPTIONS . They must also submit a flight performance routine or flight path of occupancy  . Air shows aren't some free for all willy nilly wild barnstorming event ,they're CAREFULLY choreographed and gone over by Numerous flight safety personnel ,as well as ATC  . CAN'T perform without standards of compliance .   Air space is restricted  5 mile radius 17,000 MSL

 

  Position reporting at airshows  Not necessary. The pilot will be in
radar and communications contact
with ATC at all times within the ADIZ

 

IFR or DVFR. The flight
plan must also be filed before depar-
ture, except for operations associated

with the Alaskan ADIZ                 

 

§ 91.145 Management of aircraft operations in the vicinity of aerial demonstrations and major sporting events.

(a) The FAA will issue a Notice to Airmen (NOTAM) designating an area of airspace in which a temporary flight restriction applies when it determines that a temporary flight restriction is necessary to protect persons or property on the surface or in the air, to maintain air safety and efficiency, or to prevent the unsafe congestion of aircraft in the vicinity of an aerial demonstration or major sporting event. These demonstrations and events may include:

(1) United States Naval Flight Demonstration Team (Blue Angels);

(2) United States Air Force Air Demonstration Squadron (Thunderbirds);

(3) United States Army Parachute Team (Golden Knights);

(4) Summer/Winter Olympic Games;

(5) Annual Tournament of Roses Football Game;

(6) World Cup Soccer;

(7) Major League Baseball All-Star Game;

(8) World Series;

(9) Kodak Albuquerque International Balloon Fiesta;

(10) Sandia Classic Hang Gliding Competition;

(11) Indianapolis 500 Mile Race;

(12) Any other aerial demonstration or sporting event the FAA determines to need a temporary flight restriction in accordance with paragraph (b) of this section.

(b) In deciding whether a temporary flight restriction is necessary for an aerial demonstration or major sporting event not listed in paragraph (a) of this section, the FAA considers the following factors:

(1) Area where the event will be held.

(2) Effect flight restrictions will have on known aircraft operations.

(3) Any existing ATC airspace traffic management restrictions.

(4) Estimated duration of the event.

(5) Degree of public interest.

(6) Number of spectators.

(7) Provisions for spectator safety.

(8) Number and types of participating aircraft.

(9) Use of mixed high and low performance aircraft.

(10) Impact on non-participating aircraft.

(11) Weather minimums.

(12) Emergency procedures that will be in effect.

(c) A NOTAM issued under this section will state the name of the aerial demonstration or sporting event and specify the effective dates and times, the geographic features or coordinates, and any other restrictions or procedures governing flight operations in the designated airspace.

(d) When a NOTAM has been issued in accordance with this section, no person may operate an aircraft or device, or engage in any activity within the designated airspace area, except in accordance with the authorizations, terms, and conditions of the temporary flight restriction published in the NOTAM, unless otherwise authorized by:

(1) Air traffic control; or

(2) A Flight Standards Certificate of Waiver or Authorization issued for the demonstration or event.

(e) For the purpose of this section:

(1) Flight restricted airspace area for an aerial demonstration - The amount of airspace needed to protect persons and property on the surface or in the air, to maintain air safety and efficiency, or to prevent the unsafe congestion of aircraft will vary depending on the aerial demonstration and the factors listed in paragraph (b) of this section. The restricted airspace area will normally be limited to a 5 nautical mile radius from the center of the demonstration and an altitude 17000 mean sea level (for high performance aircraft) or 13000 feet above the surface (for certain parachute operations), but will be no greater than the minimum airspace necessary for the management of aircraft operations in the vicinity of the specified area.

(2) Flight restricted area for a major sporting event - The amount of airspace needed to protect persons and property on the surface or in the air, to maintain air safety and efficiency, or to prevent the unsafe congestion of aircraft will vary depending on the size of the event and the factors listed in paragraph (b) of this section. The restricted airspace will normally be limited to a 3 nautical mile radius from the center of the event and 2500 feet above the surface but will not be greater than the minimum airspace necessary for the management of aircraft operations in the vicinity of the specified area.

(f) A NOTAM issued under this section will be issued at least 30 days in advance of an aerial demonstration or a major sporting event, unless the FAA finds good cause for a shorter period and explains this in the NOTAM.

(g) When warranted, the FAA Administrator may exclude the following flights from the provisions of this section:

(1) Essential military.

(2) Medical and rescue.

(3) Presidential and Vice Presidential.

(4) Visiting heads of state.

(5) Law enforcement and security.

(6) Public health and welfare.

 

Pilot of P63 was in violation of Section #9 Air shows special provisions

https://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/airshow/media/Air_Show_Special_Provisions.pdf

Air Show Special Provisions
Aviation Event Maneuvering Chart
9. Repositioning Turns.
a. Return to the Flying Display Area/Aerobatic Box. Conducting repositioning turns having an
energy vector directed towards the primary spectator area, and in accordance with subparagraph
3-147L, made for the purposes of returning to the flying display area or aerobatic box to realign
with the appropriate category aircraft show line, must be completed as follows:

i. Civilian performers. Pilots who hold a SAC with an Aerobatic endorsement (Solo or
Formation) and flying Category III or Category I and Category II ex-military fighters
are permitted to perform repositioning turns for the purposes of returning to the flying
display area or aerobatic box using a maximum of 120 degrees of bank and 90 degrees
of pitch when above 500 feet AGL and not over designated spectator areas or congested
areas.

ii. Pilots who hold a SAC with a Dynamic Maneuvering–Solo endorsement are permitted
to perform repositioning turns using a maximum of 90 degrees of bank and 60 degrees
of pitch when above 500 feet AGL when not over designated spectator areas or
congested areas. Formation not authorized.

iii. Military jet demonstration teams and single-ship demonstration teams for the purposes
of returning to the flying display area or aerobatic box:

iv. Military demonstration teams with accepted maneuvers packages are permitted to
exceed a maximum of 120 degrees of bank and 90 degrees of pitch; Pitch and bank
angles must not exceed standard operating procedures prescribed for the specific
aircraft; and Inverted flight is not authorized below 1,500 feet AGL and not over
congested areas or spectator areas.

 

 


When the Thunderbirds fly here the tower shuts down and hands control of the airspace over to the “air boss” who is in control the air show. It’s not over a runway but all flight is restricted during the air show at least that’s what a F16 pilot told me 

 

 

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