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B17 crash in Dallas due to mid air collision


MontanaLon
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On 11/20/2022 at 6:12 PM, Rampy said:


When the Thunderbirds fly here the tower shuts down and hands control of the airspace over to the “air boss” who is in control the air show. It’s not over a runway but all flight is restricted during the air show at least that’s what a F16 pilot told me 

 

 

That was how it was when I flew in the Military Operating Area as well. The pilot filed his flight plan to the MOA and upon arrival to the MOA the airspace was closed to all traffic but us from 12,000 feet to as high as we could go. The only contact we had with ATC after they closed the airspace for us was listening to them advise traffic to turn to avoid the MOA. When we were done, the pilot returned the MOA to ATC control and got vectors to pick up the flight path to the airport. The reason the floor of the airspace was at 12,000 feet is because the airspace up to 10k feet was uncontrolled meaning light planes could operate there without a flight plan and not in contact with ATC. Once ATC told the pilot our space was clear the rules went out the window. He could fly any way he wanted and as fast as he wanted as long as he didn't break the speed of sound. We got close. The mach meter peaked out at .98 mach. 

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On 11/20/2022 at 5:12 PM, Rampy said:


When the Thunderbirds fly here the tower shuts down and hands control of the airspace over to the “air boss” who is in control the air show. It’s not over a runway but all flight is restricted during the air show at least that’s what a F16 pilot told me 

 

 

 

What happens on Military bases is Military BUSINESS and NOT FAA controlled .

UNTIL PUBLIC AIRSHOWS and public is in attendance  ,it then becomes FAA -ATC Business all the way , as they assume command and responsibility pertaining to the AIRSHOW ONLY  . That is not to say they just walk in and everybody else exits . Quite to the contrary ALL ATC  Civilian & Military work in cooperation and ALL pilots must submit current credentials of air worthiness  with current ( within 45 days of show ) Proficiency rating for any particular stunt .

 

You may ask Patty directly  ;  https://pattywagstaff.com/contactus/ 

 

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Just for the record : I was an alternate "  Base " in case  a situation arose  preventing regular scheduled jumpers from competition . I used to Skydive  and was there for the World Record Star at Elsinore ,CA. . Stan was who I would have replaced and Stan  reportedly went in some years later Dbl May West in Colorado ,yet turns out wasn't Stan after all .

He probably wished it had been after USPA grilled his azz ,he was Banned from Jumping in competition for awhile !.

That's the current certificate credentialed part I mentioned earlier !.  Seems the substitute wasn't USPA qualified  or current on his log book .

 

Chuck  , Patty ? along with Rich   are Still Great Friends to this day . Talked with Chuck a couple months back , Rich is Still jumping and filming . Rich Piccirilli has done Numerous Movie Stunts ,such as James Bond  . When Timothy Dalton  sky dived onto that yacht off of Malta ,that was Rich .

I've NOT seen Patty in quite some time ,as she and Chuck were long time ago married and divorced . All our lives went separate ways . However Chuck , Rich and I remain Fast Friends to this day .

 

https://www.skydivemag.com/new/world-record-re-created/

 

web-Still-of-Record-24-Way-e157382016277

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On 11/22/2022 at 7:42 PM, BushXM15 said:

 

What happens on Military bases is Military BUSINESS and NOT FAA controlled .

UNTIL PUBLIC AIRSHOWS and public is in attendance  ,it then becomes FAA -ATC Business all the way , as they assume command and responsibility pertaining to the AIRSHOW ONLY  . That is not to say they just walk in and everybody else exits . Quite to the contrary ALL ATC  Civilian & Military work in cooperation and ALL pilots must submit current credentials of air worthiness  with current ( within 45 days of show ) Proficiency rating for any particular stunt .

 

You may ask Patty directly  ;  https://pattywagstaff.com/contactus/ 

 

I will go with what Dan says here.

 

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On 11/22/2022 at 6:42 PM, BushXM15 said:

 

What happens on Military bases is Military BUSINESS and NOT FAA controlled .

UNTIL PUBLIC AIRSHOWS and public is in attendance  ,it then becomes FAA -ATC Business all the way , as they assume command and responsibility pertaining to the AIRSHOW ONLY  . That is not to say they just walk in and everybody else exits . Quite to the contrary ALL ATC  Civilian & Military work in cooperation and ALL pilots must submit current credentials of air worthiness  with current ( within 45 days of show ) Proficiency rating for any particular stunt .

 

You may ask Patty directly  ;  https://pattywagstaff.com/contactus/ 

 


So the air space near a military installation (not over) where a air show and the Thunderbirds are flying and where public is gathered is actually considered military and the Air Boss who is in charge is not really in charge but the local ATC who is on break and watching the air show is actually in charge cuz Patty is smoking crack in daddy’s basement 

 

Oh and FAA rules apply when flying over military bases thru “military” airspace 

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On 11/22/2022 at 8:07 PM, MontanaLon said:

I will go with what Dan says here.

 

 

 

Let ME KNOW when YOU find the " Air Boss " as I wish to confer with him her or them .

 I would also like to KNOW ,how an individual with a radio tracks pilots flight paths and altitude ,especially seeing as he or her or them has NO RADAR equipment and limited visual .   I think there is a miscommunication ,as to the meaning  between " Show Promoter " and " Air Boss " .  :tap:

https://www.faa.gov/airports/airport_safety/airshows

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On 11/22/2022 at 9:42 PM, Rampy said:


Golly geee  you actually know what you’re talking about :lol: :lol: :tiphat:

 

Well golly gee ground pilot , by all means  please tell all of us about your #55 years piloting experience :ack:

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On 11/23/2022 at 11:40 AM, BushXM15 said:

 

 

Let ME KNOW when YOU find the " Air Boss " as I wish to confer with him her or them .

 I would also like to KNOW ,how an individual with a radio tracks pilots flight paths and altitude ,especially seeing as he or her or them has NO RADAR equipment and limited visual .   I think there is a miscommunication ,as to the meaning  between " Show Promoter " and " Air Boss " .  :tap:

https://www.faa.gov/airports/airport_safety/airshows

There is no certification for an air boss and that is a person who the promoter hires to run the aerial demonstration portion of the show. He is more of a choreographer than air traffic controller and he should be smart enough to keep planes from running into each other. 

 

Like Dan said in his video, I think CAF is probably going to wreck themselves if not the whole airshow industry with this freak up. When the show didn't draw enough warbirds to make a constant stream of planes going in one direction for the parade they decided to run it both directions down the show line and had different performance planes flying different patterns at the same altitude that merged at either end of the show line. And then the guy running it was doing so without the experience of actually having been a show pilot. His instructions and the pilot of the P63's following of it because the squeaky wheel gets greased being the culture at CAF lead to the crash.

 

Even the FAA rep who was sitting in the safety briefing didn't say anything about the maneuvers being briefed might no be safe. It is the whole Swiss cheese model in slow motion and it started even before the briefing. 

 

What will likely happen is airshows will be run by representatives from the FAA who are completely risk averse. They will go from spectacles to a series of planes flying straight and level along the show line at "safe speeds" and no sudden maneuvers. May as well go sit on the approach end of a runway and let the planes fly by as they go to land. Wooohoooo.

On 11/23/2022 at 12:52 PM, Flesh Wound said:

A gentle reminder to keep it civil.

:old1:

 

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On 11/23/2022 at 2:35 PM, MontanaLon said:

There is no certification for an air boss and that is a person who the promoter hires to run the aerial demonstration portion of the show. He is more of a choreographer than air traffic controller and he should be smart enough to keep planes from running into each other. 

 

Like Dan said in his video, I think CAF is probably going to wreck themselves if not the whole airshow industry with this freak up. When the show didn't draw enough warbirds to make a constant stream of planes going in one direction for the parade they decided to run it both directions down the show line and had different performance planes flying different patterns at the same altitude that merged at either end of the show line. And then the guy running it was doing so without the experience of actually having been a show pilot. His instructions and the pilot of the P63's following of it because the squeaky wheel gets greased being the culture at CAF lead to the crash.

 

Even the FAA rep who was sitting in the safety briefing didn't say anything about the maneuvers being briefed might no be safe. It is the whole Swiss cheese model in slow motion and it started even before the briefing. 

 

What will likely happen is airshows will be run by representatives from the FAA who are completely risk averse. They will go from spectacles to a series of planes flying straight and level along the show line at "safe speeds" and no sudden maneuvers. May as well go sit on the approach end of a runway and let the planes fly by as they go to land. Wooohoooo.

:old1:

 

 

 

I openly admit and owe You and Rampy an apology . So Lon , Rampy I sincerely apologize :ohmy:

 

I've Never heard outside Military jargon  the term Airboss . In 55 years of flying  you would have expected ME to run across that term somewhere ,especially given where I learned to fly . As I flew 35 years out of  CRQ which is surrounded by  MCAS Miramar  SAN and MCASCP   along with a whole slew of smaller airports .

 

For the record  I know the persons as FOO or AOO  which are credentialed , Flight operations officer ,Airfield Operation officer  respectively . I've been to numerous airshows as well as Reno air races  over nearly 45 years and NEVER once heard anyone referred too as airboss . I Never actually have flown  in an air show but have flown into them prior and after the airshow

 

However  airboss is an UN-credentialed position not pertaining to any FAA regulation or operation .

 

According to Dallas News  they referred to that ground person ( airboss )  as the show promoter . channel 10 CBS Dallas as well as there ABC affiliate as I read their transcripts from the reporters   .

 

So the Pilot of the P-63 is still at fault  and that WON'T change no matter What or WHO said what . The pilot is ALWAYS responsible for his aircraft and regardless of commands from the ground ,even ATC  ultimately fall back onto the pilot for his or her actions . In controlled or uncontrolled airspace .

 

 This is the Best video and commentary on the crash 

 

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On 11/24/2022 at 6:45 PM, BushXM15 said:

 

 

I openly admit and owe You and Rampy an apology . So Lon , Rampy I sincerely apologize :ohmy:

 

I've Never heard outside Military jargon  the term Airboss . In 55 years of flying  you would have expected ME to run across that term somewhere ,especially given where I learned to fly . As I flew 35 years out of  CRQ which is surrounded by  MCAS Miramar  SAN and MCASCP   along with a whole slew of smaller airports .

 

For the record  I know the persons as FOO or AOO  which are credentialed , Flight operations officer ,Airfield Operation officer  respectively . I've been to numerous airshows as well as Reno air races  over nearly 45 years and NEVER once heard anyone referred too as airboss . I Never actually have flown  in an air show but have flown into them prior and after the airshow

 

However  airboss is an UN-credentialed position not pertaining to any FAA regulation or operation .

 

According to Dallas News  they referred to that ground person ( airboss )  as the show promoter . channel 10 CBS Dallas as well as there ABC affiliate as I read their transcripts from the reporters   .

 

So the Pilot of the P-63 is still at fault  and that WON'T change no matter What or WHO said what . The pilot is ALWAYS responsible for his aircraft and regardless of commands from the ground ,even ATC  ultimately fall back onto the pilot for his or her actions . In controlled or uncontrolled airspace .

 

 This is the Best video and commentary on the crash 

 

Accepted and all good. Juan Brown is a good one, I follow him on YT and he is pretty level headed about the deal. 

 

And yes it comes down to the actions of the P63 pilot but goes even deeper into the CAF organization's safety culture or lack thereof. I expect there will be some lawsuits flying around from survivors that could bankrupt the organization. That would be a disaster for the warbird community. 

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