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GLShooter

Consistent Crimp in Progress

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I received the Consistent Crimp hardware from Tuckerp229 Consistent Crimp about 10 days ago. NONEYA loaned me an RCBS Ammo Master press for the trials. I wandered down to Cabelas and picked up a Lee FCD die in 233. Brass for the test is 1X Winchester commercial that I have accumulated. Primers would be Remington 7 1/2's and I decided on X-Terminator powder at a nice safe starting load that I had used in other rifles. The rifle is an SPS 223 Varmint that I picked up a couple of years ago on a whim and had not even fired until last spring. It has about 150 rounds of break in stuff through it with a couple of PD loads developed in June.

Packaging on the wrench and temperature gauge was nice.

2Fvq6Vb.jpg

The adapter is well made for the press being nicely plated.

 

8zZfnTH.jpg

Instructions were adequate for assembly of the set up on to the press. The videos on the site also were helpful. The adapter needs to be threaded in to the press handle area by design. The Ammo Master has a smooth handle hole and is not threaded. Needless to say that was NOT GOOD!! :doh:
IZgLdc0.jpg

I got on the net and ordered up a new Ammo Master II press that should be here tomorrow on the 17 TH.

Being that I am the impatient type I chatted with Scott via PM and the phone. I took some measurements of the hole and found they were larger than the adapter. On a whim I screwed the tension nut for the adapter all the way to the top and put the adapter in the hole. There were a few threads left sticking out the bottom so I put on another nut and sucked it up tight in to the hole. Nice and tight we are ROCKIN!!! :banger:
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The rig ready to go.

 

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The Lee Crimp Tool

 

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I had processed and loaded the ammo using a Dillon 650 and had used a Sinclair expander mandrel to drop the neck tension as much as possible. The wrench proved easy to use and I can tell you that 5 FT. lbs. is not much!! I have loaded up ammo in five ft. lb. increments from 0 to 50 in groups of ten. I only loaded five of the 50's as that is a heck of a lot of pressure!!

The goal is to place groups on the target so one can review the results of varying crimp pressure. That means that you want a grid system for easy reference. I'll be using some targets with a one inch grip for visual assessment as well as measuring them out. I want to eliminate any performance issues so I put a Leupold 24X target scope on the SPS yesterday.

Of course a scope change means a sight in was necessary so off I went in a balmy 109 degree temperature!! I had some OLD ammo I loaded up for my AR in 1994 with a good 52 grain bullets and shot some sighters. Two rounds at 25 had me dialed in close and I moved out to 100 yards. The next group fired ran a bit under an MOA.(not measured yet). I then fired some 40 grain VMAX that I had downloaded after my last automatic deprime on the trigger pull experiment. Once I got settled in the rifle shot some nice groups and I now have an acceptable PD load with those bullets. Since I intend to showcase the groups later I adjusted my scope to throw the bullets out into the non-aiming point of the target that will translate over when I go for record. That worked well and I shot two, one four and one five shot, groups with the test ammo and no crimp for a baseline sight in. The rifle likes the load but still leaves room for improvement.

I'll be posting the results once I start hitting the range next weekend. I intend to shoot this twice, my first batch of ammo, and then run another batch through that I will load this week. I have also decided, after talking with Scott, to run a test using a 243 Remington that is a standard weight barrel. This will be an interesting test as I paid $300 for it off the used rack at Cabelas in 2007 and have never fired a round through it. It has an OLD Weaver variable on it but nice Leupold rings. I'll swap the target scope over to it for the test. The gun has rust on the exterior and has been banged around a bit. I THINK it has been shot very little as the bluing in the bolt shows virtually no wear like the ones that I have that have been shot extensively. I've got a bunch of extra 1X 243 R-P brass that I've had for years and I really want to work up a fast load with the 70 grain TNT's and this will be my excuse to do that. I picked up a 243 FCD die yesterday and have plenty of components. This should be a nice experiment.

Greg

Edited by GLShooter

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Sounds like a fun project. Can't wait for the results to come back.

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got the other piece of my adapter arm today. testing will start this weekend if all goes as planned :nt:

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I received the Consistent Crimp hardware from Tuckerp229 <A href="Consistentcrimp.com">Consistent Crimp</about 10 days ago. NONEYA loaned me an RCBS Ammo Master press for the trials. I wandered down to Cabelas and picked up a Lee FCD die in 233. Brass for the test is 1X Winchester commercial that I have accumulated. Primers would be Remington 7 1/2's and I decided on AA2015 powder at a nice safe starting load that I had used in other rifles. The rifle is an SPS 223 Varmint that I picked up a couple of years ago on a whim and had not even fired until last spring. It has about 150 rounds of break in stuff through it with a couple of PD loads developed in June.

 

Packaging on the wrench and temperature gauge was nice.

DSC02764.jpg

The adapter is well made for the press being nicely plated.

DSC02774.jpg

 

Instructions were adequate for assembly of the set up on to the press. The videos on the site also were helpful. The adapter needs to be threaded in to the press handle area by design. the Ammo Master has a smooth handle hole and is not threaded. Needles to say that was NOT GOOD!! :doh:

DSC02772.jpg

I got on the net and ordered up a new Ammo Master II press that should be here tomorrow on the 17 TH.

 

Being that I am the impatient type I chatted with Scott via PM and the phone. I took some measurements of the hole and found they were larger than the adapter. On a whim I screwed the tension nut for the adapter all the way to the top and put the adapter in the hole. There were a few threads left sticking out the bottom so I put on another nut and sucked it up tight in to the hole. Nice and tight we are ROCKIN!!! :banger:

DSC02781.jpg

 

I had processed and loaded the ammo using a Dillon 650 and had used a Sinclair expander mandrel to drop the neck tension as much as possible. The wrench proved easy to use and I can tell you that 5 FT. lbs. is not much!! I have loaded up ammo in five ft. lb. increments from 0 to 50 in groups of ten. I only loaded five of the 50's as that is a heck of a lot of pressure!!

 

The goal is to place groups on the target so one can review the results of varying crimp pressure. That means that you want a grid system for easy reference. I'll be using some targets with a one inch grip for visual assessment as well as measuring them out. I want to eliminate any performance issues so I put a Leupold 24X target scope on the SPS yesterday.

 

Of course a scope change means a sight in was necessary so off I went in a balmy 109 degree temperature!! I had some OLD ammo I loaded up for my AR in 1994 with a good 52 grain bullets and shot some sighters. Two rounds at 25 had me dialed in close and I moved out to 100 yards. The next group fired ran a bit under an MOA.(not measured yet). I then fired some 40 grain VMAX that I had downloaded after my last automatic deprime on the trigger pull experiment. Once I got settled in the rifle shot some nice groups and I now have an acceptable PD load with those bullets. Since I intend to showcase the groups later I adjusted my scope to throw the bullets out into the non-aiming point of the target that will translate over when I go for record. That worked well and I shot two, one four and one five shot, groups with the test ammo and no crimp for a baseline sight in. The rifle likes the load but still leaves room for improvement.

 

I'll be posting the results once I start hitting the range next weekend. I intend to shoot this twice my first batch of ammo and then run another batch through that I will load this week. I have also decided, after talking with Scott, to run a test using a 243 Remington that is a standard weight barrel. This will be an interesting test as I paid $300 for it off the used rack at Cabelas in 2007 and have never fired a round through it. It has an OLD Weaver variable on it but nice Leupold rings. I'll swap the target scope over to it for the test. The gun has rust on the exterior and has been banged around a bit. I THINK it has been shot very little as the bluing in the bolt shows virtually no wear like the ones that I have that have bee shot extensively. I've got a bunch of extra 1X 243 R-P brass that I've had for years and I really want to work up a fast load with the 70 grain TNT's and this will be my excuse to do that. I picked up a 243 FCD die yesterday and have plenty of components. This should be a nice experiment.

 

Greg

 

 

Nice report Greg. Thank you.

 

I noticed one thing I wish to point out. The Lee FCD dies by instruction from Lee should not be crimped past the point that the collets close during the crimp process. They state that increasing crimp pressure beyond this point can damage the Lee FCD die and produces no benefit to the cartridge performance and in fact may harm the cartridge performance. Most of my testing with the .223 has the collets closing about 30-35 foot pounds of pressure. I suppose one might experiment a bit beyond the closure point particularly on non-cannelured bullets but watch carefully to see that you are are bending the collets. One other related point is that Lee describes the FCD die as making "its own cannelure". While this may be like aspirin....a little is beneficial but a lot may harm.

 

The link to the Consistent Crimp in action is here for those of you that wish to see rather than imagine the CC in action.

 

 

One last note, as Greg discovered, the Consistent Crimp Standard adapter will fit on the Ammomaster as he showed in the picture. I have begun including two lock nuts with my standard adapter already. My web site application chart will be updated to include this new application.

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Nice report Greg. Thank you.

 

I noticed one thing I wish to point out. The Lee FCD dies by instruction from Lee should not be crimped past the point that the collets close during the crimp process. They state that increasing crimp pressure beyond this point can damage the Lee FCD die and produces no benefit to the cartridge performance and in fact may harm the cartridge performance. Most of my testing with the .223 has the collets closing about 30-35 foot pounds of pressure. I suppose one might experiment a bit beyond the closure point particularly on non-cannelured bullets but watch carefully to see that you are are bending the collets. One other related point is that Lee describes the FCD die as making "its own cannelure". While this may be like aspirin....a little is beneficial but a lot may harm.

 

The link to the Consistent Crimp in action is here for those of you that wish to see rather than imagine the CC in action.

 

 

One last note, as Greg discovered, the Consistent Crimp Standard adapter will fit on the Ammomaster as he showed in the picture. I have begun including two lock nuts with my standard adapter already. My web site application chart will be updated to include this new application.

 

I stopped at 50 lbs as at that point it was getting obvious that closure was right on maxed out. It was more educational for me as I am certain when you put that much crimp on one there will be things like raised pressure and obturation of the bullet through the applied pressure that could negatively impact results.

 

Performance on target will be interesting at that level. I'll be doing chronograph data gathering as I shoot these loads and I do expect some variation in the numbers. Different powder types will be effected more than others but once I am done the X-terminator powders will be a known for my Rolf. I have not selected the powder for the 243 yet so it will be another set of data points.

 

I think that the tests will yield some "do not do" data as it unfolds and that knowledge will safe some headaches for users down the line.

 

Greg

 

PS: Since you are upgrading the packaging with the extra nuts I hope that you don't alter the directions and tell everybody to put Greg's Nuts on the adapter!! :rolleyes:

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I stopped at 50 lbs as at that point it was getting obvious that closure was right on maxed out. It was more educational for me as I am certain when you put that much crimp on one there will be things like raised pressure and obturation of the bullet through the applied pressure that could negatively impact results.

 

Performance on target will be interesting at that level. I'll be doing chronograph data gathering as I shoot these loads and I do expect some variation in the numbers. Different powder types will be effected more than others but once I am done the X-terminator powders will be a known for my Rolf. I have not selected the powder for the 243 yet so it will be another set of data points.

 

I think that the tests will yield some "do not do" data as it unfolds and that knowledge will safe some headaches for users down the line.

 

Greg

 

PS: Since you are upgrading the packaging with the extra nuts I hope that you don't alter the directions and tell everybody to put Greg's Nuts on the adapter!! :rolleyes:

 

 

50 footpounds will be real interesting for us all. I have never run a .223 up that high.

 

About those nuts of Greg's....never mind. :blink:

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Well I manged to hit the range today for six hours. Fired 84 rounds (I really need to learn to count to 10!!) The groups were interesting as was the chrono data. I fought gusting winds all day so much I thought I had moved back to Oklahoma.

 

I'll be working at labeling them legibly and scanning some targets tomorrow. The rifle I'm using is a bit TOO accurate I believe. If I can figure out how to take some temps on those round NM hand guards I may well shoot the next batch in a heavy barrel AR with a non-match grade barrel.

 

Also the 243 will get loaded this week. I had picked out a powder and written it down, now if I can find the paper, otherwise it is back to reviewing the loading books. I'm jazzed about this one too as I have never fired a round through it and bought it uses. It has a nice sporter weight barrel so I bet that the crimper is going to really show some changes on this one.

 

Greg

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OK guys. These are the targets that I shot a week or so ago using the Consistent Crimp equipment.

Several factors are at work here in the process and drawing your own conclusions is what it is all about. Parameters for the test were simple. Take a rifle, load up sets of ammo at varying 5 ft/lb increments and go shoot them. All would have the same powder charge, bullet, case, primer and COL. I am hobbled , cursed?, with the simple fact that I have not bought any "regular" rifles" for years.

I wanted to use a small cartridge for the first batch so I chose a Remington SPS 223 Varmint with about 100 rounds through it. I went to the books and evaluated load data and what I had on the shelf and decided on 25.1 grains of X-Terminator powder. Cases were all once fired Winchester commercial sized to 0.000 SAAMI specs and trimmed to 1.750, primers were Remington 7 1/2's and the COL was set at 2.255. his rifle is a shooter and the 100 yard distance does not lend itself to huge variation. I put a 24 X Leupold target scope on the rifle for the testing shooting off a concrete bench with the use of a very cheap front rest and some plastic bean filled rear bags.

Loading was straight forward and the use of the CC was very easy. It is not designed for a progressive press so I borrowed an RCBS Ammo Master from NONEYA and originally the design was not quite compatible as the lever attachment is not threaded. Working with Scott, the CC designer/guru, I was able to whip that issue with an extra nut and it fitted up nicely. Or, as the English would say, the fitment was good. These are the groups fired with the pertinent data. If you notice there seemed to be one that drifts off in several of the groups. Now you can say it's the CC at work or you can figure it's the twitchy finger of an old man at the bench. I know that I have always been able to hold four shots but that fifth one is always the bugger!!

Also, I will post he chrono data on shot to shot. These were all thrown charges on the Dillon 650 as all processes except crimping was done on it. All cases were pre-expanded using a Sinclair inside neck expander that is 0.002 below bullet size. I could have used one that is 0.001 undersized but I plan on shooting another batch in an AR and the 0.002 will hold them a bit better for the slamming around they get.

So here we go!!!!

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CHRONOGRAPH DATA:

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Looking over the groups I feel like the best four is indicative of what is going on. I looked at the chronograph numbers as I shot these and while you do see deviation in velocity the bullet impact from shot to shot from high to low never showed any correlation. The = or - of the rounds still showed good grouping.

Notice that barrel temperature for each shot is to the right of the velocity readings. Barrel temp for the start of each group is directly above the set. I shot ten rounds at each level and threw out the worst target in the batch as the conditions with the heat and wind were not ideal.

The data was shot over about 12 hours at the range as it takes a bit of time for the barrel to cool off. I know that I shoot a better set of targets if I just plop down and do them back to back. Shooting five and waiting 15 minutes is not conducive to my hyperactivity issues!!

Given that a guy can trickle charge his cases if he is going for the gusto the SD can be cut down quite a bit. A good shooter, of which I am not, could really squeeze the benefit out of this tool IMHO. As I mentioned these were thrown charges. Many guys don't trickle and without benefit of a chronograph shoot some surprising groups both ways. Tools just help expand the knowledge base and can, at times, raise many questions and challenges.

Ideally with this rifle the range should be stretched out to 200 yards to really let the CC do it's thing. I do see some promise in the adjustments and am going to pursue it in the future. I feel so strongly about this that I actually BOUGHT a Rock Chucker Supreme for my bench. This is the ONLY single stage press I will have had in use since 1977 on my bench!!

I was in a quandary as to what to do next so I am going to shoot a 243 700 Remington BDL next with a regular weight barrel. I have never fired the rifle as it was bought used from Cabelas three years ago and it will be fun to work with. Also, since I have a complete set of 223 loaded up and crimped I will shoot a third series with an OLY barreled AR that has been used as my back up back up for IPSC over the years. Nothing fancy with it having just a SS non-chromed bore and not match grade.

I hope this is not too boring for you all. Feel free to comment about what you see and if you feel the urge it's OK to rag on my lack of shooting ability. Maybe someday I'll buy one of those fancy rifle sleds and take the nut out of the equation.

Greg

Edited by GLShooter

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Bumped so I can find it again. Help me with my part-timers guys. :CONFUS12:

 

Greg

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I dont know how I missed this thread when it first was posted.

 

Nice write up.

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Now that this has been resurrected, I will make an observation.

 

That's some pretty darn consistent muzzle velocities for powder charges just dumped not trickled. I'd say you have your powder measure technique down pretty darn good.

 

Tj

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Now that this has been resurrected, I will make an observation.

 

That's some pretty darn consistent muzzle velocities for powder charges just dumped not trickled. I'd say you have your powder measure technique down pretty darn good.

 

Tj

 

I guess the powder choice must have figured in there. I do know that powder density was pretty good and that seems to help for consistent results.

 

Greg

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It looks like the best group is minimal crimping pressure of 5 ft-lbs. Does this roughly equate to 5 lbs of pressure on the press handle?

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